Bebop scales

Originally posted by chris mood
Now, to get back to your original statement about using a tri-tone sub in a 12 bar blues. The most common variation of this would be to insert the sub for the 4 chord, usually in measure 2, but if you wanted a real tense sound you could do it in measures 5 & 6. Examples
A Blues
|A7...|D7...|A7...|....|
|D7...|....|A7...|....|
|E7...|D7...|A7...|D7.E7.||
most common used tri tone sub in a 12 bar:
|A7...|Ab7...|A7...|....|
|D7...|....|A7...|....|
|E7...|D7...|A7...|D7.E7.||
If you really wanted to push the boundaries
|A7...|D7...|A7...|....|
|Ab7...|....|A7...|....|
|E7...|D7...|A7...|D7.E7.||

Isn't the Ab7 in those chord progressions really one of the German or Italian augmented 6th chords instead of a Neapolitan?? Both can resolve down a half step although the Neapolitan isn't a dominant chord, but rather a simple inverted major chord. The Aug 6th chords are on the other hand. The Ab is also a half step above a dominant, a common home for the Aug6 chord. If the resolving A7 was a major tonic chord it would imply Neapolitan. Doesn't though so I was wondering. :confused:

Sorry Christoph. Sort of wandered off didn't we. :) Happens alot though, just B.S.'in now.

No problem . . . you guys just keep discussing your Napoleons, or whatever they are.

Yeah man if you got anything, like a question or just something to say about bebop scales. Go for it. I think it's starting to come to an end anyways.

Neapolitans and augmented 6th chords are both similuar in nature, probably both responsible for the modern development of the tri-tone substitution, or at least we'll have to credit them both since we don't know who original did what and what their motivation was behind it.

I have to disappear for awhile. I have to finish up this book/cd I've been working on of solo Beatles arrangements for guitar, I have a meeting w/the publisher at the end of the month. Been using Guitar Tricks as a distraction, time to force myself to get to work. What started out as a fun project has turned into a nightmare, don't think I'll be listening to any Beatles songs in the near future once this is finished. Have fun guys.:)

If I'm not mistaking, aug. 6th chords usually act as a 5/5 or 5/4, there roots are not built off the b2, nor do they resolve to a chord whose tonal center is a tri-tone away. One of them (Gr. or Fr.) acts as a b6 to 5, a common progression in Harmonic minor.

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
Isn't the Ab7 in those chord progressions really one of the German or Italian augmented 6th chords instead of a Neapolitan?? Both can resolve down a half step although the Neapolitan isn't a dominant chord, but rather a simple inverted major chord. The Aug 6th chords are on the other hand. The Ab is also a half step above a dominant, a common home for the Aug6 chord. :confused: [/B]

Ab7 to A7 is not resolving down a half step, but up. What you are suggesting would be Bb7 to A7. Just noticing the mistake.:)

[u]Ab7 - A7[/u]

[Homer Simpson] Doh!! I don't know what i was thinking or how I got that confused. Thanks for noticing my mistake. :)

[u]1 last thing[/u]

I'm not sure about an augmented sixth acting like a 5/5 or 5/4, those sound like secondary dominants. II7 and I7, I don't see how either of those chords could be interpreted as a Aug 6th. Although these theories are based on where your going rather than where you stand and I'm sort a novice with Augmented Sixths. I would say neither, without some uncommon exception that I am unaware of.

As for the action of a Augmented 6th chord, they sound good when they resolve back to the dominant a half step down [bVI(+6) - V7] or the tonic in second inversion [bVI(+6) - I6/4]. My opinion but theoretically it sounds correct, considering how the aug 6 is supposed to move. As for the one that resolves from bVI to V in the harmonic minor, I'd say the German or Italian.

About an Augmented Sixth having the root being a b2. The French 6th can be the b2, because of it's intervallic pattern, which is major third, major second, major third. It will work in both the harmonic minor and major keys. The German and Italian 6th are commonly seen on the lowered submediant (b6), and sometimes on b2 but the French 6th is a better choice in my opinion. Or a Neapolitan w/o b5.

But anyways, best of luck with your book man.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 10-10-2003 at 06:25 PM]

After looking at the post again and what you said I figured out what you meant. It’s true that Aug. 6th chords have a complex relationship to secondary dominants but not without some help. That help coming from tri-tone substitution. Connecting the dots and really thinking hard, a little substitution can make the relationship between Augmented 6th chords and dominant 7th’s possible. The German augmented sixth chord could be a tri-tone substitution of the (V7 of V). In the key of C major, the V7 of V works out to be D7. The Augmented 6th’s on the bVI chord would be Ab, and the tri-tone sub would be D7. Since the Italian is pretty much the same, the same works. Even the French Augmented Sixth can be rooted in a tri-tone substitution of a secondary dominant. The F6 being the tri-tone substitution of (V7b5 of V). As for resolve by theory rules, Augmented Sixth resolve doesn’t share the same resolve as Dominants. Augmented 6th’s resolve in half steps or minor sixths down to root. However, dominants tend to move in major seconds or perfect intervals. Something that is true is Secondary dominants do tend to resolve to the V of the prevailing key, and one of the common movements of a Augmented 6th is to a V chord. I’m done for awhile.

Nothing!!! I said was the slightest derogatory. The moderator doesn't like what I say. This will be censored.
I guess wit is DEAD!!! Censored. He has no right!!! Arrogance is not POWER, just foolishness. Like it or not.
All of the cumbersome arguments are lame and humerous. Get a grip. Your SUBJECTS lose.

My point exactly. Bebop scales. People that know and understand them, are being SHUT DOWN!!! Very insulting. I want to help.

Ok genius, if you know so much, then why don't you explain bebop scales to me. I'm the one who started this piece of crap thread after all. :o

Needn't be nasty. I don't know what you know. Charlie Parker didn't just appear. He just listened and well. There are many views, and I can help. There is a lot of work involved, to do this well. I needn't be second guessed. And many with Master's needn't the the headache. You want the help, it's out there and uncensored. This is supposed to be a free forum. Let's work toward that idea.

Originally posted by griphon2
Needn't be nasty. I don't know what you know. Charlie Parker didn't just appear. He just listened and well. There are many views, and I can help. There is a lot of work involved, to do this well. I needn't be second guessed. And many with Master's needn't the the headache. You want the help, it's out there and uncensored. This is supposed to be a free forum. Let's work toward that idea.

Does he sound like Yoda to anyone else?

Go, if you must. Be with you, the force.

:D

Well, Yoda at least made some sense (until he went all kungfu in Episode II).

True true, I was actually just talking about his sentence phrasing, because well, I couldn't understand what he said either.

LOL . . . one of the many low points of Episode II was that Yoda started saying the most ridiculous things in reverse, like - "To the command center take me"

But I can't for the life of me figure out what the crack this means -

Originally posted by griphon2
And many with Master's needn't the the headache.

:confused:

Yeah, he definitely reminds me of someone who feels the need to think above everyone else. Especially that quote you wrote Christoph were I think he's trying to say, "I've got a Master's and for me to teach you would give me a headache". But he's here to help. :rolleyes: Yoda said stuff like that in a means of being helpful though. Seems like he spends most of his time trying to save everyone from me, the evil tyrant. :D Seriously he needs to get over it, quit badgering and do what he says he wants to do. Help.

Originally posted by griphon2
Nothing!!! I said was the slightest derogatory. The moderator doesn't like what I say. This will be censored.
I guess wit is DEAD!!! Censored. He has no right!!! Arrogance is not POWER, just foolishness. Like it or not.
All of the cumbersome arguments are lame and humerous. Get a grip. Your SUBJECTS lose.

Why were those posts deleted? Like this one but I will leave it as an example, in case griphon needs to refer back to it. First line I don't say anything slightly derogatory. Second line the moderator..., I guess that's me (the evil tyrant of the theory forum :D ). Blah blah, then we get to Arrogance is not POWER, just foolishness. Gee, so I'm arrogant and foolish?? Not derogatory. Hmm :confused:

I have never erased anything of his that was helpful, so he has no reason to cry about how I’m censoring his opinion. He knows why stuff of his was erased, because they are only meant to start trouble. As a moderator it’s my job to keep that from happening. And what’s this “I guess wit is DEAD”?? So he want to match wits with me?? But oh yeah, he’s here to help. :rolleyes:

That’s about as much as I can write and stay civil about it. But griphon’s posts will be deleted if they continue like this. Get a grip, you lose, move on!

The lowest and worst thing to happen to star wars has got to be Jar-Jar Binks. I think when I first started playing Star wars galaxies I went and killed every Gungan I saw out of built up fustration. Glad no one talks like that here. "Me'sa being Censored, Me'sa gonna spend all day crying about it". Not to be confused with Mesa. :)

Me'sa big doodoo now.