Question: Scale Patterns

Im really trying to get a firm grasp on the scales. Why are the patterns of the scales out of order with the fretboard?

For example: In the C Major (Ionian) scale, Pattern 1 starts on the 5th fret and then Pattern 4 starts on the Open string E.

Why doesn't Pattern 1 start closest to the nut? Is there a definitive reason why the 1st pattern does not start closest to the nut and then the succeeding patterns in order down the neck of the guitar?

Am I confusing patterns with positions?

Originally Posted by: TCRGuitar
Am I confusing patterns with positions?

I think you might be. I'm not sure if there is a 100% set list of pattern numbers. As far as I know, you can number the different patterns whatever you want. Could be wrong though. I haven't memorized pattern numbers, only their shapes which is the main concept.
http://www.freeguitarcourse.com/images/fivemajpat.jpg

Positions are different. 5th position is ALWAYS and ONLY at the 5th fret. They are named because of the fret that you start on. You can compare it to the word "sections" for sections of the fretboard.

http://www.freewebs.com/guitarlincs//chords%20and%20diagrams/Notes%20in%20First%20Position.jpg

You can't necessarily remember scale patterns through positions though. The patterns themselves are the same, but can be moved around the fretboard. For example A certain "pattern" for a C scale can be played lets say starting at the 5th fret. That same exact PATTERN (order of notes and the shape you play them in) can be played somewhere else, but it will no longer be C, it would be whatever note you start on. This is what I think is getting you confused. You can use the same exact patter (for example pattern 1) for ANY SCALE. Since all scales are in different places though, pattern 1 for one scale is going to be in a different part of the fretboard than it is for another scale.

Positions never change or move. Patterns don't change, but they can be MOVED around to different positions.

If you want a really clear understanding of patterns for the major scale, and then all the subsequent modes, pick up "The Fretboard Workbook". It will totally clarify what you're asking about.

The next thing I'll throw out there is that there are many ways to skin a cat, and you may not be as confused as you might think.

Here's the thing... like hunter says, we're trying to memorize these patterns so we know where the notes are across the fretboard. Lets start with the major scale like you're talking about. Now, the practical end goal here (think of it as a tool that we're adding to our guitar tool belt) is to be able to see the major scale for any given key across the entire fretboard. That's the long range goal. But to get there, we use patterns to group notes that are close together.

What gets confusing is that there are different ways of explaining where these patterns are and how to visualize them across the fretboard. Many teachers use the "CAGED" system, and other methods start pattern one on the low E string, the logic being that where you start with your first note.

The Fretboard Workbook is a Musicians Institute publication, and you might be interested to know that their method works just as you suggest, with C maj scale pattern 1 starting on first fret. Check it out, its a great book and will de-mystifie all this stuff for you.

Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardIf you want a really clear understanding of patterns for the major scale, and then all the subsequent modes, pick up "The Fretboard Workbook". It will totally clarify what you're asking about.

The next thing I'll throw out there is that there are many ways to skin a cat, and you may not be as confused as you might think.

Here's the thing... like hunter says, we're trying to memorize these patterns so we know where the notes are across the fretboard. Lets start with the major scale like you're talking about. Now, the practical end goal here (think of it as a tool that we're adding to our guitar tool belt) is to be able to see the major scale for any given key across the entire fretboard. That's the long range goal. But to get there, we use patterns to group notes that are close together.

What gets confusing is that there are different ways of explaining where these patterns are and how to visualize them across the fretboard. Many teachers use the "CAGED" system, and other methods start pattern one on the low E string, the logic being that where you start with your first note.

The Fretboard Workbook is a Musicians Institute publication, and you might be interested to know that their method works just as you suggest, with C maj scale pattern 1 starting on first fret. Check it out, its a great book and will de-mystifie all this stuff for you.

That sounds like something I should get :) but I got this book called Serious Guitar instead. I believe that it covers basically the same stuff. My friend who went to the Musician's Institute suggested this book for me. It is a total study of all of the modes and improvisation of the entire neck for every mode basically in existence.

The Fretboard Workbook sounds like a good tool for memorizing the fretboard and all of that. Currently I'm using a system of my own device which centers around the idea of B and C lining up with E and F, as well as BCD > EFG > ABC> DEF and then A always being a string above any E, as well as the kite patterns that each note has. Like if you take all of the A notes on the fretboard, you will notice that it makes a diamond around 5 and has a trailing "kite-string".

Now I will use the CAGED system as well. I think attacking the problem from multiple angles is really working best for me, I think a mastery of at least knowing where all of the natural notes on the guitar are is not that far off if I continue studying this subject this way :) I also pick a string and a fret each day and name all of the notes up the string and acrossed the fret. One day soon I will have the whole fretboard memorized (yay)

It's taken me about four months but the end of the first step is in sight. After that it is just going to be applying all of my theory knowledge to the guitar. Another thing that helps is taking the fretboard five frets at a time 1-5, 3-7, 5-9, and 7-11, that way you are working with manageable chunks of it. Happy studies!

Originally Posted by: hunter1801I think you might be. I'm not sure if there is a 100% set list of pattern numbers. As far as I know, you can number the different patterns whatever you want. Could be wrong though. I haven't memorized pattern numbers, only their shapes which is the main concept.
http://www.freeguitarcourse.com/images/fivemajpat.jpg

Positions are different. 5th position is ALWAYS and ONLY at the 5th fret. They are named because of the fret that you start on. You can compare it to the word "sections" for sections of the fretboard.

http://www.freewebs.com/guitarlincs//chords%20and%20diagrams/Notes%20in%20First%20Position.jpg

You can't necessarily remember scale patterns through positions though. The patterns themselves are the same, but can be moved around the fretboard. For example A certain "pattern" for a C scale can be played lets say starting at the 5th fret. That same exact PATTERN (order of notes and the shape you play them in) can be played somewhere else, but it will no longer be C, it would be whatever note you start on. This is what I think is getting you confused. You can use the same exact patter (for example pattern 1) for ANY SCALE. Since all scales are in different places though, pattern 1 for one scale is going to be in a different part of the fretboard than it is for another scale.

Positions never change or move. Patterns don't change, but they can be MOVED around to different positions.

Very Very helpful information. Thank you for taking the time to explain it in detail. The diagram links were particularly helpful to me as was your explanation of movable patterns. This is all very interesting to me.

Originally Posted by: MarcusWiesner Currently I'm using a system of my own device which centers around the idea of B and C lining up with E and F, as well as BCD > EFG > ABC> DEF and then A always being a string above any E, as well as the kite patterns that each note has. Like if you take all of the A notes on the fretboard, you will notice that it makes a diamond around 5 and has a trailing "kite-string".

Now I will use the CAGED system as well.

The Fretboard Workbook/MI approach is a lot simpler. It is built on the principle that there are 5 patterns of octaves that repeat across the fretboard. So for instance, Pattern one is the 2nd & 5th string, two frets apart.

Try it. Grab your guitar. Pick any note on the 2nd string, and then count two frets up and play the note on the 5th string... they are the same note; anywhere you start on the fretboard, the notes on the 2nd string and then two frets up on the 5th string are the same. There are four more patterns, then they just keep repeating. These patterns are used as the building blocks for scales.

Its not that other systems are "wrong", the CAGED system is really explaining exactly the same thing, the notes end up being the same, but the patterns will be referred to with different numbers. However, I've seen so many people get confused when people start trying to explain "we're going to play the G major scale... we're going to take the C major chord form and then add all these notes around it..." It works for some people, but I've met a lot of players that find it really confusing.

The explanations in the Fretboard Workbook are really concise and clear. I'd really recommend it. Oh, and the whole octave pattern thing is just at the beginning. It explains really well how intervals work from string to string, and gets you to understand and memorize scale patterns before you try to play them. Worked for me... I can play the major scale in all 5 positions across the fretboard, but more importantly, I start to see all the notes across the fretboard after a while, so I can move way up or down the fretboard and still stay in key.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardIf you want a really clear understanding of patterns for the major scale, and then all the subsequent modes, pick up "The Fretboard Workbook". It will totally clarify what you're asking about.

The next thing I'll throw out there is that there are many ways to skin a cat, and you may not be as confused as you might think.

Here's the thing... like hunter says, we're trying to memorize these patterns so we know where the notes are across the fretboard. Lets start with the major scale like you're talking about. Now, the practical end goal here (think of it as a tool that we're adding to our guitar tool belt) is to be able to see the major scale for any given key across the entire fretboard. That's the long range goal. But to get there, we use patterns to group notes that are close together.

What gets confusing is that there are different ways of explaining where these patterns are and how to visualize them across the fretboard. Many teachers use the "CAGED" system, and other methods start pattern one on the low E string, the logic being that where you start with your first note.

The Fretboard Workbook is a Musicians Institute publication, and you might be interested to know that their method works just as you suggest, with C maj scale pattern 1 starting on first fret. Check it out, its a great book and will de-mystifie all this stuff for you.

I would definitely like to get a copy of The Fretboard Workbook. The "CAGED" system sounds interesting. I have a lot of fun playing the scales...now I need to learn how the notes within the scales relate to each other. Your explanation helped me...thank you!

The easiest way I have found to remember scales/patterns is by using this trick that Richard Lloyd wrote for Guitar World once.

Here's a video I made detailing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uOMcs_fO38&feature=channel

Pt. 2 of video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkY3vKb1X-I

Basically there are 3 finger patterns, Ring, Stretch, and Middle.

You can see this in the A Minor scale.

Start with A on the 5th fret of the low E.

It's 5-7-8, or ABC. This is the ringfinger pattern, because it is most easily played with first, ring, and pinky fingers.

This position is played twice.

So it's 5-7-8 low E, 5-7-8 A string. Or ABC, DEF.

Now it's 5-7-9 on the D string, or GAB
then 5-7-9 on the G string, or CDE

This we shall call the 'Stretch' pattern because it has a bit of a stretch to it.

It is played 3 times total, as you will see because the next string, the B string is:

6-8-10. Or FGA Notice we moved up a fret here. ALWAYS Move up on the B string by one fret, if you are doing the patterns for scales this way.

So far we have:
Ringfinger pos. X 2
Stretch pos. X 3

Now we will have: Middle position times 2. So called because it is easily played by using first finger, middle finger, then pinky
because it's 7-8-10 on the high E string. Or BCD
Notice we moved up a fret here. ALWAYS move up a fret when going from Stretch position to middle finger position.

So we now have played through all six strings, ending with a middle finger position on the high E string. Where do we go from here?

Now we go to the 7th fret on the low E string, or 'B' note. This is going ot be the 2nd pos. for the A minor Scale.

So remember I said it was Middle finger X 2? Well you don't actually count the high E for purposes of counting patterns, so we are going to play the middle pos. twice here.

Or, 7-8-10 on low E string, BCD
7-8-10 on A str., EFG

Then it's back to Ringfinger pos. 7-9-10 on D string, or ABC
7-9-10 on G str., or DEF

So it's always:
RINGFINGER X2
STRETCH X 2
MIDDLE X 2

Just repeating over and over again as you move up the neck, remembering to:
* Move up a fret on the B String
* Move up a fret when switching from Stretch to Middle Position
* Do not count the E string

I know, sort of a lot of info. But if you get this you can do it for any of the 'basic' scales/modes in major keys.

those videos again:
Here's a video I made detailing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uOMcs_fO38&feature=channel

Pt. 2 of video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkY3vKb1X-I

Brian,

Lots of good information here...simple and logical. I will be watching these videos. You also helped me realize something that I'm embarrassed to even say...lol

The Fretboard Workbook who is the author so I buy the correct one, Thanks

I am asking this becasue if you go into Amazon there are different authors under the same tiltle "The Fretboard Workbook" I want to get the correct one

The Fretboard Workbook has different authors. If you go into Amazon there are different ones. Can you give me a Authors name for the book so I buy the right one, Thanks, Pete

Also Brian that was some good info

Originally Posted by: Sgt TeeThe Fretboard Workbook has different authors. If you go into Amazon there are different ones. Can you give me a Authors name for the book so I buy the right one, Thanks, Pete

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, the author is:

Barret Tagliarino,

here's the Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Fretboard-Workbook-Barrett-Tagliarino/dp/0634049011/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310312160&sr=8-1

No problem but thats the one thats on the way, Pete

Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardSorry I didn't get back to you sooner, the author is:



Barret Tagliarino,

here's the Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Fretboard-Workbook-Barrett-Tagliarino/dp/0634049011/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310312160&sr=8-1