subtle delays
i would like to know how to add the same sorta echo that most extreme guitar players like satch and vai use. and how to get it right so when u play ur not playing over urself.
# 1
Well I don't know the exact settings.. but it's generally about 2 or 3 echoes.. I'll see what delay I use for mine. Here are my settings:
Time: 150ms
Level: 18%
Low-Cut: 20Hz
Hi-Cut: 15KHz
Mix: 1.5 : 0.5
How that translates into the settings on your own delay pedal, I don't know. May be an effects guru will be along shortly to be more helpful :)
Time: 150ms
Level: 18%
Low-Cut: 20Hz
Hi-Cut: 15KHz
Mix: 1.5 : 0.5
How that translates into the settings on your own delay pedal, I don't know. May be an effects guru will be along shortly to be more helpful :)
# 2
Almost every delay has a control labeled "feedback". This controls the number of repeats and ultimately the depth. Always start with this control fully counter-clockwise and roll it on slowly. Usually a good delay sound is a combination or finese of the feeback control and the output/balance controls. I generally set the overall balance to 70% direct and 30% effect to start off and roll the feedback control on until I get the depth that I'm looking for.
The response above is indicative of a digital rackmount delay and you might not have that. The delay times though should translate well and 150ms is a good place to start. I will sometimes go as high as 300ms if I want a really BIG sound. If you DO have a digital rack delay then I would recommend setting up the delay first and fine tuning with the low and hi cut controls. Proper use of those can help to put a delay sound right where you want it in your mix and keep it from being too in-your-face.
The response above is indicative of a digital rackmount delay and you might not have that. The delay times though should translate well and 150ms is a good place to start. I will sometimes go as high as 300ms if I want a really BIG sound. If you DO have a digital rack delay then I would recommend setting up the delay first and fine tuning with the low and hi cut controls. Proper use of those can help to put a delay sound right where you want it in your mix and keep it from being too in-your-face.
# 3
Another thing to consider: most of the newer rigs include ducker delay - meaning the degree of delay is dependent on the picking attack itself. The same can be done for distortion so it will go from very heavy saturated gain to a more slightly dirty sound for ore restrained picking. Everything you hear on a studio recording though is added after the guitar parts are recorded in post effects treatment and quite often involves adding combinations of VST plug ins or routing the signal through something like an Eventide rack unit.
A good delay sound though has a lot to do with synchronising the feedback tempo with the bpm of the track so that everything is in time.
A good delay sound though has a lot to do with synchronising the feedback tempo with the bpm of the track so that everything is in time.
# 4
If you want to truly know how 'un-true' that statement is about effects on the guitar you have only to visit Brent Mason's website and see the STUDIO RIG that he brings in with him. Anyone that has spent any time in the studio recording with a studio guitarist (or recording as a studio guitarist) would know that a guitarist brings his tone and his effects in an IF and ONLY if the engineer has a problem with the sound, then he'll add to what's already there OR in extreme cases may try to talk the guitarist out of using a particular effect.
Only guitarists with bad tone or ones that don't know how to properly operate their effects get recorded sans effects and have them added after the fact.
Only guitarists with bad tone or ones that don't know how to properly operate their effects get recorded sans effects and have them added after the fact.
# 5
Originally Posted by: PValentiOnly guitarists with bad tone or ones that don't know how to properly operate their effects get recorded sans effects and have them added after the fact.
Come on man, this is a ridiculous statement.
You can record anyway you want and there is no proper way to do anything. I've been to plenty of studios and the engineers have all without exception wanted dry takes with nothing more than noise supression and compression. And yes, I can play guitar and no my tone is not bad (to my ear anyway!).
Post effects make a lot of sense because you are not making any destructive changes to the core tone - anything can be undone and changed - this is very important if you take a mix home and decide a week later that the flanger actually sounds a bit 80's. You can remix it in a matter of minutes/hours as opposed to setting up everything all over again to rerecord something that could end up being a large part.
I'm obviously not an engineer but I suggest you read the following book which was reccommended to me by some of the engineers over at homerecording.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Recording-Guitarist-Jon-Chappell/dp/0793587042
The author debates recording with and without effects, and although there is never only one correct way to record he does make a very strong case for recording sans fx.
# 6
Dude...I'm talking about Nashville and LA not some back-water home studio BS!
Before you go blowing smoke up people's (you know what's) maybe you should spend some time in a REAL recording studio.
You are speaking in abstracts and not specifics. Abstractly no way of recording is wrong and anything you do might work great...in fact it might work so well that it becomes the NORM. However speaking from PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE...the way you said it is not strictly how it works in the pro recording studio.
I had a listen and YES...you can play and YES it IS good. However it's all heavy stuff with a Satriani/Vai sort of vibe. Not a bad thing at all. However...you are also in the realm that MOST new guitarists are in and speaking abstractly (in defference to you) a major portion of those guys don't have the slightest idea of how to get TONE...regardless of how great a player they are.
Real tone-mongers use more than 1 position on the pickup switch and use more sounds than just heavy distortion/sustain. I'm not slamming you or your ideas...just saying that what you said is not the norm in a professional recording environment.
Having said that...you should look up some of the rants of studio engineers when it comes to guitarists and their 'effects/tone'. For instance, during the recording of one of Metallica's albums the engineer said that he had to literally HIDE the lead player's wah-wah pedal because he wanted to use it on EVERY song. Now if they were adding stuff after the fact he wouldn't have had to do that now would he? There is an example of an absolutely KILLER guitarist who has no real idea how to get a good tone. However, he's sold FAR more albums than I could ever hope to...so who's wrong really?
I'm just saying that your statement isn't really how it's done in the world of professional recording studios...however...as I've pointed out there are many recording engineers who would prefer it that way. In fact...they are sometimes prone to bullying the guitarist into doing it their way. However...no recording engineer anywhere will balk at a guitarist who has great tone.
The ONLY exception that I've seen to this rule is the addition of delay on a guitar solo track. Occassionally I have seen the recording engineer take a send before the time-based effects. This way the guitarist gets to hear his solo sound the way he likes it and the engineer gets an un-delayed (however not dry) signal. Perhaps this is what you are talking about?
Before you go blowing smoke up people's (you know what's) maybe you should spend some time in a REAL recording studio.
You are speaking in abstracts and not specifics. Abstractly no way of recording is wrong and anything you do might work great...in fact it might work so well that it becomes the NORM. However speaking from PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE...the way you said it is not strictly how it works in the pro recording studio.
I had a listen and YES...you can play and YES it IS good. However it's all heavy stuff with a Satriani/Vai sort of vibe. Not a bad thing at all. However...you are also in the realm that MOST new guitarists are in and speaking abstractly (in defference to you) a major portion of those guys don't have the slightest idea of how to get TONE...regardless of how great a player they are.
Real tone-mongers use more than 1 position on the pickup switch and use more sounds than just heavy distortion/sustain. I'm not slamming you or your ideas...just saying that what you said is not the norm in a professional recording environment.
Having said that...you should look up some of the rants of studio engineers when it comes to guitarists and their 'effects/tone'. For instance, during the recording of one of Metallica's albums the engineer said that he had to literally HIDE the lead player's wah-wah pedal because he wanted to use it on EVERY song. Now if they were adding stuff after the fact he wouldn't have had to do that now would he? There is an example of an absolutely KILLER guitarist who has no real idea how to get a good tone. However, he's sold FAR more albums than I could ever hope to...so who's wrong really?
I'm just saying that your statement isn't really how it's done in the world of professional recording studios...however...as I've pointed out there are many recording engineers who would prefer it that way. In fact...they are sometimes prone to bullying the guitarist into doing it their way. However...no recording engineer anywhere will balk at a guitarist who has great tone.
The ONLY exception that I've seen to this rule is the addition of delay on a guitar solo track. Occassionally I have seen the recording engineer take a send before the time-based effects. This way the guitarist gets to hear his solo sound the way he likes it and the engineer gets an un-delayed (however not dry) signal. Perhaps this is what you are talking about?
# 7
By the way...I just wanted to say that you are an excellent player!
Oh and on the book issue...just because somebody writes and publishes something doesn't make it credible or right. I'm typing this here and you don't know me from Adam. However someone else might find this post through a google search. Just because either of us say something doesn't make it true. I try to refrain from quoting any published reference because you just never know how TRUE it is. Experience is the only thing that can teach you what works and even that isn't an absolute.
Either method (the one I mentioned or yours) quite obviously will WORK. In the end it's whatever works for YOU that's the best solution.
Sorry to hijack the thread...back on-topic!
Oh and on the book issue...just because somebody writes and publishes something doesn't make it credible or right. I'm typing this here and you don't know me from Adam. However someone else might find this post through a google search. Just because either of us say something doesn't make it true. I try to refrain from quoting any published reference because you just never know how TRUE it is. Experience is the only thing that can teach you what works and even that isn't an absolute.
Either method (the one I mentioned or yours) quite obviously will WORK. In the end it's whatever works for YOU that's the best solution.
Sorry to hijack the thread...back on-topic!
# 8
Thanks for checking out my stuff - always makes my day to hear a compliment! Anyway, you got me thinking about recording guitar parts so I checked around a bit with some engineers and also asked a friend of mine who owns a 'high end' studio (he recorded The Cranberries, Snow Patrol and Colin Farrel among others).
Basically the concensus was that the high end studios do a bit of both (dry and wet recording of guitar parts), depending on the situation. Recording with reverb, chorus, flanger or delay is 'mostly' avoided because things can be messed up when doubling tracks because of phase like shifts and sweeps that don't match up. Also, those effects cause problems if any editing is required. They do of course advise that wah is done live to get the proper feel and any additional dirtying of the signal eg overdrive on fron of distortion etc.
Some parts demand effects to be played properly anyway such as types of feedback and loops or certain passages done with a tap delay etc. Also, when I said 'dry' earlier I did mean with distortion - that is a given and must be captured directly the first time around unless you are reamping a separate channel - then you would DI a clean 'straight from the pickup' take before the signal hits the preamp of the actual amp. Aso, they said that most (not all) performances that require effects eg, delay and reverb for a lead part are done using multiple mics, with one take going though the effects on the board to give the wet sound to the performers cans to help them play the part they want to 'feel'. Also, whenever possible they always take a clean DI for backup of everything, it also allows them to reamp through different amps for multi layering and completely new tones while still benefiting from the interaction between the pickups and the original amped sound (feedback and subtle harmonis etc).
Anyway, all very interesting, I would love to have a lot of free time to experiment with all of the various techniques - just coming back to say that we are both right and that the actual method of capturing the tone has a lot to do with the music type and the actual performance part itself. :)
Basically the concensus was that the high end studios do a bit of both (dry and wet recording of guitar parts), depending on the situation. Recording with reverb, chorus, flanger or delay is 'mostly' avoided because things can be messed up when doubling tracks because of phase like shifts and sweeps that don't match up. Also, those effects cause problems if any editing is required. They do of course advise that wah is done live to get the proper feel and any additional dirtying of the signal eg overdrive on fron of distortion etc.
Some parts demand effects to be played properly anyway such as types of feedback and loops or certain passages done with a tap delay etc. Also, when I said 'dry' earlier I did mean with distortion - that is a given and must be captured directly the first time around unless you are reamping a separate channel - then you would DI a clean 'straight from the pickup' take before the signal hits the preamp of the actual amp. Aso, they said that most (not all) performances that require effects eg, delay and reverb for a lead part are done using multiple mics, with one take going though the effects on the board to give the wet sound to the performers cans to help them play the part they want to 'feel'. Also, whenever possible they always take a clean DI for backup of everything, it also allows them to reamp through different amps for multi layering and completely new tones while still benefiting from the interaction between the pickups and the original amped sound (feedback and subtle harmonis etc).
Anyway, all very interesting, I would love to have a lot of free time to experiment with all of the various techniques - just coming back to say that we are both right and that the actual method of capturing the tone has a lot to do with the music type and the actual performance part itself. :)
# 9
Yeah that all makes sense.
The one thing that I will say about engineers is that some (not all) are overly agressive when it comes to using new techniques or techniques that aren't easily reproduced in a live situation. I always stand like an oak tree on the premise that "If I can't do it live...I don't want it on the recording!".
I've had engineers try to talk me into all sorts of idiotic stuff (well...it seems like that to me with the philosophy I have about being able to reproduce it live). I've had them want to add vocal parts that aren't there...or layer vocals on top of vocals (which they would then add some detuning and pitch correction to, which basically is an overly fancy way of creating chorus or harmonizer effects). I don't mind layering guitar parts (not leads though) as long as it's the same EXACT part over itself. That can be reproduced live fairly easily either through the guitar rack or through the console by smart application of the proper effects.
In case you couldn't tell already...I run sound for my band "RiverGard" and I'm a total tech nut! lol I've also run sound for a lot of the bands that I've been in during my 30 odd years of playing out (been playing guitar since I was 4 years old and been gigging since I was 14...yes...I'm 44! ugh!). I'm the kind of guy that has to know what everything does and all the ways I can use it! lol
I've produced or co-produced every studio recording that I've done with any of my own bands and I played as a studio musician for 10 years. So I've been in a few studios and a heck of a lot of concert halls, clubs, parks, fairs, festivals, you name it!
OK...sorry to hijack the topic yet AGAIN...I'm off to go practice...yeah...that's productive! hehehe :p
The one thing that I will say about engineers is that some (not all) are overly agressive when it comes to using new techniques or techniques that aren't easily reproduced in a live situation. I always stand like an oak tree on the premise that "If I can't do it live...I don't want it on the recording!".
I've had engineers try to talk me into all sorts of idiotic stuff (well...it seems like that to me with the philosophy I have about being able to reproduce it live). I've had them want to add vocal parts that aren't there...or layer vocals on top of vocals (which they would then add some detuning and pitch correction to, which basically is an overly fancy way of creating chorus or harmonizer effects). I don't mind layering guitar parts (not leads though) as long as it's the same EXACT part over itself. That can be reproduced live fairly easily either through the guitar rack or through the console by smart application of the proper effects.
In case you couldn't tell already...I run sound for my band "RiverGard" and I'm a total tech nut! lol I've also run sound for a lot of the bands that I've been in during my 30 odd years of playing out (been playing guitar since I was 4 years old and been gigging since I was 14...yes...I'm 44! ugh!). I'm the kind of guy that has to know what everything does and all the ways I can use it! lol
I've produced or co-produced every studio recording that I've done with any of my own bands and I played as a studio musician for 10 years. So I've been in a few studios and a heck of a lot of concert halls, clubs, parks, fairs, festivals, you name it!
OK...sorry to hijack the topic yet AGAIN...I'm off to go practice...yeah...that's productive! hehehe :p
# 10
