The E Mode or something like that!!!

hi,

ok so heres what i recently ran into......i was strumming some chords when i found this nice feel when i strummed E and then F.

(just for the record im new to theory) i wanted to see as to which scale/mode this progression would fit into........E is what comes to mind and i was like good this is the key of E major (so far i know that the starting/tonic chord is the key) and the scale????? :confused: well after some thought i figured its got to be E Locarian and E Phyrigian...why cus only these two modes of E major contain the notes E and F.

i was really happy but came another problem!!!!......so far i know that for a major scale the chords are determined as I ii iii IV V vi VII*.......and i was like what the heck, how do i get the Fmaj cuz the ii is a minor :confused:

so i read again and till now ive come to conclude that its got to do something with MODULATION or SUBSTITUTION?????

by modulation i mean starting at E maj and modulating to some F major scale but then again its definately not the best ways to modulate!! (like ive read that a good way to modulate can be by using the V)

substitution....well i guess i could substitute a Fmaj instead of a F min while i use the same E mode......is that a possibility???

neways this is what ive come to think of.......i could be absolutely wrong or i could be partially correct..........please help me with this problem.....thanks

shapi

Originally Posted by: shapertakhi wanted to see as to which scale/mode this progression would fit into ...[/quote]
Bravo, good for you thinking in terms of theory!

Originally Posted by: shapertakh
.....E is what comes to mind and i was like good this is the key of E major (so far i know that the starting/tonic chord is the key) ... [/QUOTE]
That is a good guess, but for future reference, the first chord in a progression is not always or necessarily the tonic.
[QUOTE=shapertakh] well after some thought i figured its got to be E Locarian and E Phyrigian...why cus only these two modes of E major contain the notes E and F.

Good thinking. :)
[QUOTE=shapertakh] ... what the heck, how do i get the Fmaj cuz the ii is a minor ... so i read again and till now ive come to conclude that its got to do something with MODULATION or SUBSTITUTION?????

You conclude correctly!

The modified (or modulated) scale you are after is A harmonic minor; the mode is E Phrygian Dominant. Those are the ones that contain the notes that will properly form the E and F major chords:

A harmonic minor: a-b-c-d-e-f-g#-a (minor with a raised 7th degree)
E major chord: e-g#-b
F major chord: f-a-c

Start the A harmonic minor scale on it's 5 note (the "fifth mode of") and you will get E Phrygian Dominant: e-f-g#-a-b-c-d-e

The thing that may have caused you all the confusion here is that you just happened to start on the chord in with an altered note! Hope this helps; happy playing!

Great thread...............
And another fantastic post from C.;;;; Just perfect.
Modulation can really break you out of what I refer to as "Box Thinking" or just pertaining to the diatonic theory within a certain Key.
Take for example the Key of Em; If you play a progression using Em-Am-G-Bm
i-iv-III-v,,,, it remains diatonic with Em. What if you wanted to change the Bm (v) to B7 (V7) for a different effect to the progression; i-iv-III-V7......
The i-iv-III are diatonic but the V7 isn't (B7= B-D#-F#-A). How could it work?
The 3rd (D#) isn't in the Key of Em, but all the other notes in B7 are.
It would work if you played by starting with the Em scale and maybe improv into the Em pentatonic over the diatonic chords and substitute with the E Harmonic minor scale over the B7 chord, which would tie in the non-diatonic part of the progression, leading back to the i chord.
This would be considered using Parallel minor scales in the progression.
Em scale (Natural minor); E-F#-G-A-B-C-D (Em pent;= E-G-A-B-D)
E Harmonic minor scale; E-F#-G-A-B-C-D#

talking of keys..........this brings me to yet another confusing thing.....

i did a progression that looked like this

f#m Dmaj F#m Emaj

so..........things that i do know are

its the f# natural minor scale or simply the 6th mode of the D maj scale (ie the tonic scale)

am i in the key of D or f#????? :confused:

if its the key of f# then how do associate this scale/mode with its tonic D scale????

shapi

talking of keys..........this brings me to yet another confusing thing.....

i did a progression that looked like this

f#m Dmaj F#m Emaj

so..........things that i do know are

its the f# natural minor scale or simply the 6th mode of the D maj scale (ie the tonic scale)

am i in the key of D or f#????? :confused:

if its the key of f# then how do i associate this scale/mode with its tonic D scale????

shapi

Originally Posted by: shapertakhf#m Dmaj F#m Emaj ...[/quote]
Write down all the notes in all those chords:

F#min - f#, a, c#
E maj - e, g#, b
D maj - d, f#, a

Write them linearly:

f#, g#, a, b, c#, d, e, f#

This does yield the F-sharp minor scale! But since the D major scale has a "g" as it's 4th and not a "g#" it can't be the D major scale.
[QUOTE=shapertakh]if its the key of f# then how do i associate this scale/mode with its tonic D scale????

The relative major of F-sharp minor in A major. Consider this: the notes that make up the A major scale and the F-sharp minor scale contain the same notes. The only difference is which one gets labelled scale degree number 1 or the tonic.

A major:

a - 1st
b - 2nd
c# - 3rd
d - 4th
e - 5th
f# - 6th
g# - 7th
a - 1st

F-sharp minor:

f# - 1st
g# - 2nd
a - 3rd
b - 4th
c# - 5th
d - 6th
e - 7th
f# - 1st

Going back to your original chord group:
F#min - f#, a, c#
E maj - e, g#, b
D maj - d, f#, a

The big clue in that group is the two major chords a whole step apart: D major and E major. The only place you find two major chords a whole step apart in natural major is between the 4th and 5th. The only place you find two major chords a whole step apart in natural minor is between the 6th and 7th.

Also check out my Modes tutorial: http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=370

Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by: shapertakhtalking of keys..........this brings me to yet another confusing thing.....
i did a progression that looked like this f#m Dmaj F#m Emaj
so..........things that i do know are
its the f# natural minor scale or simply the 6th mode of the D maj scale (ie the tonic scale)
am i in the key of D or f#????? :confused:
if its the key of f# then how do i associate this scale/mode with its tonic D scale????
shapi

I'll try not to confuse things and attempt to explain thoroughly. Dmaj and
Emaj chords played together would not be in the key of D, Dmaj and Em would;
F# natural minor (Aeolian) would not be the 6th mode of the D Major scale, it would be the 3rd mode (Phrygian). (F# is the 3rd of D)
F# natural minor (Aeolian) would be the 6th mode of the A Major scale.
F#m is the relative minor to A Major. So a I-IV-V chord progression in A Major would be Amaj-Dmaj-Emaj.
Your chord progression is based on the relative minor to A Major (F#m)
F#m-Dmaj-F#m-Emaj; which = i-VI-i-VII.
This progression would fit in the key of F#m.
It's important to understand that just because a progression starts with
F#m, doesn't automatically mean it's in the Key of F#m.
Example: By changing one chord in the F#m progression above, the progression could sound Major; F#m-Dmaj-Amaj-Emaj. The Amaj chord in this progression will overpower the F#m chord, taking on a Major tonality.
So instead of the progression being written as i-VI-III-VII, it would be written as follows; vi-IV-I-V. The "I" is Amaj, so this progression would lean stronger toward the key of A.
This is a basic explanation in grasping a concept to work from. There are many complexed options that can be used in creating progressions and the direction that the artist interprets them. That part comes in once the basic theory is comprehended, then you can build from there.
Hope this helps as a start in your journey.

pardon me for the absolute stupid typo.......what was i thinking?? but thanks for correcting me.........its A major and F# minor.

n e ways.......ill try to rephrase.......i tend to think of scales and modes as this drop down menu thing (correct me if im wrong here too)....ill use the A maj / F#min example again.........heres what i think like

A major scale - (Ionion Mode)
|______ B - (Dorian Mode)
|______ C# - (Phrygian Mode)
.
.
.
|______ F# - (Aeolian Mode)
|______ G# - (Locrian Mode)



QUESTION: im in the key of A major irrespective of the modes i change.....its like theres this one door (A maj) to this gallery that has all the "mode" rooms.....unless untill i modulate and get the notes from some other scales ill remain in the key of A major.......correct or incorrect???

which actually means that even if i skip the A and start at f#m and use the progression mentioned before (i.e F#m D E) id still be in the key of A major????

hope im clear....or atleast this becomes clear to me :p

Originally Posted by: shapertakh
n e ways.......ill try to rephrase.......i tend to think of scales and modes as this drop down menu thing (correct me if im wrong here too)....ill use the A maj / F#min example again.........heres what i think like
A major scale - (Ionion Mode)
|______ B - (Dorian Mode)
|______ C# - (Phrygian Mode)
.
.
.
|______ F# - (Aeolian Mode)
|______ G# - (Locrian Mode)
QUESTION: im in the key of A major irrespective of the modes i change.....its like theres this one door (A maj) to this gallery that has all the "mode" rooms.....unless untill i modulate and get the notes from some other scales ill remain in the key of A major.......correct or incorrect???
which actually means that even if i skip the A and start at f#m and use the progression mentioned before (i.e F#m D E) id still be in the key of A major????
hope im clear....or atleast this becomes clear to me :p

You are correct. If you use a chord progression that is a match with A Major and it's modes, you are in the Key of A. The second part regarding F#m, D and E progression is a bit tricky. This could be played in the key of F#m. The tough part is making it sound like it. The Major key has a stronger cadence than the minor key, so the progression needs to establish what the Tonic is. An almost foolproof way to establish the Tonic is by the Lead tone.
So, playing the E Major Chord in an F#m progression, E really wants to resolve to the A Major chord because G# is the M3rd of E and the M7th of A. That is why E is the dominant to A. The M7th (G#) is the Lead tone to A but it isn't to F#m or F# anything. In fact, F#m is the 2nd (Dorian) of E Major. To sound like F#m there are things to consider in the cadence that establish it.
The Major scale has one diatonic function; Major.........
The minor scale has three functions; Natural minor, Harmonic minor and Melodic minor.
The F# Natural minor has a weaker cadence because there is no lead tone to the tonic (it has a b7th).
To strengthen the cadence, the F# Harmonic minor scale could be used because it raises the b7th interval up one semitone to a M7th interval. This would raise the E note to E# (F note) which changes everything. Now the 5th chord (C#m) of F#m becomes C# dominant (Major) and produces a Lead tone (F) to F#m. The C#7 (Dominant 7th) is also a common chord used to strengthen the cadence. It's all in how you establish the Tonic.
On to modes.
Your drop down list (good by the way) shows B Dorian as one of the modes in the key of A.
The reason that B is connected to the Dorian mode in this Key (A) is because the intervals starting from the B note require a m3rd and m7th interval.
This creates a minor structure from B. So to use a B chord in the key of A, it must be a Bm chord. This means that the Dorian mode is minor.
Any mode that has 1st-m3rd-P5th intervals are minor. The minor modes are Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian. The Locrian mode also has a m3rd interval, but isn't titled a minor mode because it's diminished 5th interval is no longer a Perfect 5th. So the Locrian mode is considered Diminished, but you really need to establish it's properties in a progression to emphasize the notes that give it's diminished qualities. Remember that the Locrian mode starts and finishes on the note that is One semitone flat from the Ionian (or Root note).
Hey, that interval is also the Lead Tone, isn't it??????
Anyway, There are two things to always remember. Intervals are either Perfect or imperfect. When you look at the Major scale, notice that all of the Major Chords in Key are Rooted from Perfect Intervals. After that is established, try to take advantage of them to create interest with the imperfect.

ok so its a bit heavy bit its slowly sinking in.......so from all this talk what i can make out is that theres no static way to tell which key a certain progression belongs to.......like you said as this ( f#m D E ) progression can take off in any direction depending on the resolving chord. this makes it clear.....it can be either the A major scale if i resolve the progression that way (using the A note) or take it to some other scale altogether.

Does this actually mean that keys for modes can not necessarily exist independently and they ultimately resolve back to their mother scale (the ionion) and are hence named after the ionion modes first note?

like this ( f#m D E ) if left in this form could be called the key of f#m.....BUT would ultimately depend on how the tonic is established, thus giving the key its name?

Hope im not dragging it a bit too far :o

Originally Posted by: shapertakh... theres no static way to tell which key a certain progression belongs to ...[/quote]
A progression or group of chords is what it is: if it has the necessary components to clearly outline a key, then yes, it is in a certain specific key. If not, then no.

Originally Posted by: shapertakh ... like you said as this ( f#m D E ) progression can take off in any direction depending on the resolving chord. this makes it clear.....it can be either the A major scale if i resolve the progression that way (using the A note) or take it to some other scale altogether.[/quote]
Sort of. But more precisely, it is NOT in the key of A major UNTIL it resolves in the key of A major. It's OK to talk in terms of "potentially" being in some key while you are trying to figure this stuff out. But, in the long run, you should make clear conceptual distinctions between "actual" and "potential". But yes, you have the right idea: "if you resolve it that way".

The trick here is identifying that you are only in a specific key if you have a clear dominant - tonic relationship present in the notes/chords that happen.

Originally Posted by: shapertakh
Does this actually mean that keys for modes can not necessarily exist independently and they ultimately resolve back to their mother scale (the ionion) and are hence named after the ionion modes first note?

This is a good question. :)

The concept you are trying to grasp here is related to the difference between tonal and modal musical ideas.
[QUOTE=shapertakh]
... like this ( f#m D E ) if left in this form could be called the key of f#m.....BUT would ultimately depend on how the tonic is established, thus giving the key its name?

The chords "f#m - D - E" form a modal progression of "i - flat VII - flat VI" in the key of F-sharp minor. They could only be a tonal progression if they had a chord with the note e# (the leading tone). For example a V chord (C# major, C#7) or a vii dim chord (E# dim). They are not in the key of A major; there is no A major chord. You can use the notes of the A major scale of course to form the chords, and to play a melody or solo over the chords. That is different from "being in the key of A major" though.

To be "in a key" means to have the chords forming specific functions and relationships: be they modal or tonal. It's not just a matter of having a collection of notes together. It has to do with how the notes are organized and used.

Now, the chords "f#m - D - E" could be a small section of a larger song in which there is in fact a tonal use of the key of A major. But unless and until a dominant - tonic relationship happens, it is just "modal F-sharp minor".
[QUOTE=shapertakh]
Hope im not dragging it a bit too far :o

On the contrary, ask as much as necessary until you completely understand. Your sincere desire to learn is admirable.

Originally Posted by: CSchlegel

On the contrary, ask as much as necessary until you completely understand. Your sincere desire to learn is admirable.

As is this............

thank you for the encouragement......it truly helps!!!

okay so ive taken some time to think things out....and ive come back with some probable conclusions....i kinda made this list;

1. [U]C MAJOR SCALE:[/U]

C D E F G A B C(2)

2. [U]MAJOR SCALE IN THE KEY OF C:[/U]

C D E F G A B C(2)

3. [U]C MAJOR SCALE IN THE KEY OF C:[/U]

C D E F G A B C(2)

okay if i do the same thing with its relative minor;

4. [U]A MINOR SCALE:[/U]

A B C D E F G A(2)

5. [U]MINOR SCALE IN THE KEY OF A:[/U]

A B C D E F G A(2)

6. [U]A MINOR SCALE IN THE KEY OF C:[/U]

C D E F G A B C(2) woala the C MAJOR SCALE; Why? That’s because I took the chromatic notes, applied the minor formula WHWWHWW and wrote down the resulting notes starting with the C note (cuz it’s the key of C).
This is my conclusion only and I could be incoherent…please analyse this list and correct anything that might be wrong...n e ways what im trying to prove is that I continued and come up with something like:

7. [U]AEOLIAN MODE IN THE KEY OF C:[/U]

C MAJOR SCALE

8. [U]A AEOLIAN MODE IN THE KEY OF C:[/U]

C MAJOR SCALE

its like never ending....

9. [U]DORIAN IN THE KEY OF D:[/U]

C MAJOR SCALE

So………….

10. [U]A MINOR IN THE KEY OF F:[/U]

F G A B C D E F(2)

But isn’t it actually F LYDIAN of C MAJOR???

From all of the data above can we actually say about the [U]notes[/U] of the scale/modes that;

(C MAJOR SCALE) = (A MINOR IN THE KEY OF C) = (A MINOR IN THE KEY OF F / F LYDIAN OF THE C MAJOR SCALE)

I mean they end up with the same notes of the C MAJOR SCALE.

One thing I do know is that starting on a different note makes the sound different even if the notes are same….hope ive not put up some senseless post…..looking forward to your replys cuz ive got more coming up hehe! :)

yes all those modes have the same notes. but that does not make them the same thing. there is more to a scale/mode than what notes it contains. most people would say someone playin in a aolion (minor) sounds different to one in c ionion (major).

so u ask why this is the case. well its because of how the notes are used. one has to emphasise different notes when playin in a aolion as aposed to c ionion.

now for instance we have a 1 4 5 progresion.
in C ionion this would be C major, F majour, G major
but in a aolion it would be A minor, D minor, E minor

these sound different. one is in a minor key and the major key although they still have the same parent key and the same notes contained in the scales one would play over them.

now if u recorded urself playing over the first progression you would probably find you could play some resonable or good sounding lead line. now if you did the same with the second progression you would also probably find you could make something nice sounding just by listenin to the music and tryin to find riffs that sound good.

but now if u analyzed the two little bits of improvisation you would probably find that ou tended to use certain notes more often in one piece than the other. this is because which notes of the scale you play mater. also if you played the same bit of improv that you played over the first progression over the second you might find it sounded alright but did not 'fit' the progression as well. this is again because it maters wat notes you chose to play.

hope this is has made it clearer. if u want more detail just ask.

Originally Posted by: shapertakhthank you for the encouragement......it truly helps!!!

okay so ive taken some time to think things out....and ive come back with some probable conclusions....i kinda made this list;

1. [U]C MAJOR SCALE:[/U]

C D E F G A B C(2)

2. [U]MAJOR SCALE IN THE KEY OF C:[/U]

C D E F G A B C(2)

3. [U]C MAJOR SCALE IN THE KEY OF C:[/U]

C D E F G A B C(2)

okay if i do the same thing with its relative minor;

4. [U]A MINOR SCALE:[/U]

A B C D E F G A(2)

5. [U]MINOR SCALE IN THE KEY OF A:[/U]

A B C D E F G A(2)

6. [U]A MINOR SCALE IN THE KEY OF C:[/U]

C D E F G A B C(2) woala the C MAJOR SCALE; Why? That’s because I took the chromatic notes, applied the minor formula WHWWHWW and wrote down the resulting notes starting with the C note (cuz it’s the key of C).
This is my conclusion only and I could be incoherent…please analyse this list and correct anything that might be wrong...n e ways what im trying to prove is that I continued and come up with something like:

7. [U]AEOLIAN MODE IN THE KEY OF C:[/U]

C MAJOR SCALE

8. [U]A AEOLIAN MODE IN THE KEY OF C:[/U]

C MAJOR SCALE

its like never ending....

9. [U]DORIAN IN THE KEY OF D:[/U]

C MAJOR SCALE

So………….

10. [U]A MINOR IN THE KEY OF F:[/U]

F G A B C D E F(2)

But isn’t it actually F LYDIAN of C MAJOR???

From all of the data above can we actually say about the [U]notes[/U] of the scale/modes that;

(C MAJOR SCALE) = (A MINOR IN THE KEY OF C) = (A MINOR IN THE KEY OF F / F LYDIAN OF THE C MAJOR SCALE)

I mean they end up with the same notes of the C MAJOR SCALE.

One thing I do know is that starting on a different note makes the sound different even if the notes are same….hope ive not put up some senseless post…..looking forward to your replys cuz ive got more coming up hehe! :)

Let's analize your post and see if this helps from the confusion.
#5 (minor scale in the key of A)
Key of A = A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A
The Relative minor scale in the key of A would be;
F# Aeolian mode (F# Natural minor scale) = F#-G#-A-B-C#-D-E-F#

#9 (Dorian mode in the key of D)
Key of D = D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D
The Dorian mode in the key of D would be;
E Dorian mode = E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D-E

#10 (minor scale in the key of F)
Key of F = F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F
The Relative minor scale in the key of F would be;
D Aeolian mode (D Natural minor scale) = D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C-D

Note;;;;; The (A) minor scale in the key of F would be;
(A) Phrygian mode = A-Bb-C-D-E-F-G-A

Try working from this point and see if you can recognize what the Relative minor (Aeolian mode) would be in the key of G.