Those who ignore theroy WILL suffer!!

I know that the subject matter, terminologies, and references to chord shapes, and scale movements when explained in there proper scientific descriptions can be mind boggling. And some players will just refuse to consider the subject, and go it alone using there ear to make sense of it all. This will work for most up to a point, but an aspiring musician must form the ability to understand, and play in key with other musicians to avoid strained relationships, or just being plain left out.
I have spoken many times about the Diatonic scale for learning to play in key. And this time to make it as simple as possible I'm not going to talk as much about notes, as before. Of course whats a key without notes,"nothing". Each key has 7 notes, but instead of calling them notes, let's think of them as a pattern of dots. This pattern of dots can be seen in any Major, or minor scale dictionary,(Major, and minor is the same pattern just started from a different position in the scale) so stay with me. Look up the definition for diatonic scale, this will also help. And find a good fretboard scale dictionary, which will allow you to select any key you want to study. Then just practice staying within the pattern of dots. Do this with chords, as well as lead scale runs, and learn that pattern all throughout the neck, and play it any way you want, back, and fourth, up, and down, jumping between octaves, anything that sounds creative. Thats what it's all about, being creative. Once you know this pattern, then studying the more complex aspects of theroy will start to make more sense. And if you, like most of us want to be the next Randy Rhoads, or Eddie Van Halen, you shouldent ignore theroy!! Theroy is where amazing sounds, and skills become reality. :cool:

If Rhoads is your flavor, it's best to study Modes. Rhoads was a wizard with Modes and incorporated Modal Theory in a lot of his solos, Like the Phrygian Mode for instance.

Originally Posted by: axemaster911 And if you, like most of us want to be the next Randy Rhoads, or Eddie Van Halen, you shouldent ignore theroy!! Theroy is where amazing sounds, and skills become reality. :cool:

Well I want to become the next John Mayer so none of that applies to me...................... haha. Kidding. I've never sat down and studied theory but my best friend did/does... He's at the Musicians Institute in Los Angeles right now doing his thing... I learn a lot when I play with him... but I can still play with him.... if that makes sense. I learn new things everyday... I tried ONCE to learn as much as a could about theory... but my playing style went to hell becuse I was concentrating so much on staying in the boxes.... I agree that learning theory is DEFINITELY the way to go... but just for those that missed the train... there's hope. If you can play without knowledge of theory... it should be pretty easy to pick it all up...

Originally Posted by: aschlemanWell I want to become the next John Mayer so none of that applies to me...................... haha. Kidding. I've never sat down and studied theory but my best friend did/does... He's at the Musicians Institute in Los Angeles right now doing his thing... I learn a lot when I play with him... but I can still play with him.... if that makes sense. I learn new things everyday... I tried ONCE to learn as much as a could about theory... but my playing style went to hell becuse I was concentrating so much on staying in the boxes.... I agree that learning theory is DEFINITELY the way to go... but just for those that missed the train... there's hope. If you can play without knowledge of theory... it should be pretty easy to pick it all up...

I keep trying to learn theory but it is like trying to study Advanced Bio-physics with a Contemporary Literature mind. Two pages into a text and my mind cramps up. Any advice?

Originally Posted by: hunter60I keep trying to learn theory but it is like trying to study Advanced Bio-physics with a Contemporary Literature mind. Two pages into a text and my mind cramps up. Any advice?

Study small chunks at a time, piece by piece if you will. Focusing on one thing will help to digest it, rather than not grasping the reasoning behind your focal point and moving on to another. That's a mind cramp for sure!!!!!

Originally Posted by: hunter60I keep trying to learn theory but it is like trying to study Advanced Bio-physics with a Contemporary Literature mind. Two pages into a text and my mind cramps up. Any advice?

I pick things up fast... but if I bite off too much it alters my platying style... So basically I work on small things and concentrate on certain areas. Rather than learning all there is to know about awhole scale... just concentrate on the most common keys that you use... Take small bites. Apply things to your playing style as well... GuitarTricks is verrrry good at catering to those needs.. I'd say learn everything you can in your specific favorite style on here and then start to branch out... Develope your playing style while learning theory.

Originally Posted by: dvenetianIf Rhoads is your flavor, it's best to study Modes. Rhoads was a wizard with Modes and incorporated Modal Theory in a lot of his solos, Like the Phrygian Mode for instance.

A mode is a scale within the key started from a particular degree of the scale, and belive me my friend, I cover them all. When talking about the Phrygian scale, or any other exotic scale your getting into chromatic notes raised, or lowered from the diatonic scale. I dont even know which phrygian mode your referring to because you did not give the key, or note of origan, but thats ok, I'm not posting to match witts with fellow guitarists. My goal is to try and help those who want to improve there skills and knowledge, and if I am wrong about anything feel free to set me straight. I certainly dont know it all, thats why I visit sites like this. Rock on!! :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by: axemaster911A mode is a scale within the key started from a particular degree of the scale,

No, this is wrong. A mode is a set and specific order of tones with its own tonal root. Modes are "keys" unto themselves, diatonic and not simply bound to their corresponding ionian or aeolian counterparts. Refer to Dvenetian's thread on modes for more on this.

Jolly explained that perfectly. Try to think outside the box and any mode you emphasize will shine.

Originally Posted by: axemaster911A mode is a scale within the key started from a particular degree of the scale, and belive me my friend, I cover them all. When talking about the Phrygian scale, or any other exotic scale your getting into chromatic notes raised, or lowered from the diatonic scale. I dont even know which phrygian mode your referring to because you did not give the key, or note of origan, but thats ok, I'm not posting to match witts with fellow guitarists. My goal is to try and help those who want to improve there skills and knowledge, and if I am wrong about anything feel free to set me straight. I certainly dont know it all, thats why I visit sites like this. Rock on!!

This thread could also be titled "Those who don't understand theory will suffer". Theory is best learned a chunk at a time. Maybe this will shed some light on what I mean by "studying modes". Let's start again from the beginning. A Major scale is made from 7 tones (some whole, some half). Chords built from these tones create a key signature related to the root.
How many tones is a mode made from? 7, right? So if that's the case, any chords built related to the root creates it's own key, making the mode it's own diatonic entity. To really hear the tonal value of each mode play them starting from the same root note. Example G Ionian (Major scale), G Dorian, G Phrygian, G Lydian, G Mixolydian, etc..... Start at G on the third fret, then up an octive to the 15th fret bringing those modes to life.
I encourage you to take plenty of time studying these tones and move them to a different root, listening to the tonal center and how these modes change the mood of the tonal value you're playing.

Originally Posted by: AkiraYeah, i'm glad I didn't ignore theroy.

heh... that's what I thought when I first read that.
Who the hell is The Roy and what's his problem? :D

Come on guy's, were getting into apples verses oranges here. Scales are only different from modes because they do not have a primary root note untill the musician has selected a certain pitch for a focal point. Therefore a scale can have many different modes within it depending on the tonic.
My thread is intended to help players stay in key, and have better success playing along with other musicians.
In my opinion some of the above comments can cause more confusion, than help further an interest in theroy. There is a vast ocean of aspects to music theroy, but you have to learn to dog paddle before you can do the back stroke. :p

Originally Posted by: axemaster911Come on guy's, were getting into apples verses oranges here. Scales are only different from modes because they do not have a primary root note untill the musician has selected a certain pitch for a focal point. Therefore a scale can have many different modes within it depending on the tonic.
My thread is intended to help players stay in key, and have better success playing along with other musicians.
In my opinion some of the above comments can cause more confusion, than help further an interest in theroy. There is a vast ocean of aspects to music theroy, but you have to learn to dog paddle before you can do the back stroke. :p

First thing to clear up any confusion. The word is THEORY and it is spelled T-h e-o-r-y. Secondly oranges and apples make a nice fruit salad as long as their not rotten. If they are fresh and tasty, mix them up, if you get my drift.
The fact is that many songwriters change keys or sometimes use what we call in the industry as borrowed notes. When helping other players to have better success, it's best to share the OJ Theory; just because it doesn't fit and trust me, that glove would have fit if it were tweaked a little bit, doesn't mean you have to throw it out or set it free. All you have to do is lead it back to the cell where it belongs and there are many ways to do that. (This is called theory).
Now let's look at the difference between scales ( say the Major scale) and modes ( let's use the Phrygian mode as an example).
The Major scale intervals are 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 or w-w-h-w-w-w-h.
The Phrygian mode intervals are 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7 or h-w-w-w-h-w-w.
Looks like we may have to add strawberries to the fruit salad and I'll bet they are going to taste great with a little sugar on top (sometimes strawberries can be a little tart). If I were a Postman, I would see two different addresses to deliver to, even though they might be in the same building so to speak.
As a musician you become the delivery boy and maybe the Majors neighbor is hot!!!!!! So borrow some sugar!!!!!! To post something for someone to advance with, it needs to make sense. Dog paddling is for dogs and even dogs don't wish to be thrown out in the ocean. I live on the Pacific Coast and it's rough water as far as the eye can see. Learn theory by stepping over small puddles and it's dry land that you'll build your foundation upon.

Originally Posted by: axemaster911
In my opinion some of the above comments can cause more confusion, than help further an interest in theroy. There is a vast ocean of aspects to music theroy, but you have to learn to dog paddle before you can do the back stroke. :p

WHO IS THE ROY!!!? and why is he so popular?

Originally Posted by: axemaster911Come on guy's, were getting into apples verses oranges here. Scales are only different from modes because they do not have a primary root note untill the musician has selected a certain pitch for a focal point.

What? That's simply not true. Scales and modes are simply orders of steps. That's it. The only difference between them is the order of steps, definitely has NOTHING to do with the root note. What do you mean by "primary root note" anyhow? A root note is a root note. A minor and A phrygian have the same root note, A minor and F# Phrygian do not.

in my opinion some of the above comments can cause more confusion, than help further an interest in theroy. There is a vast ocean of aspects to music theroy, but you have to learn to dog paddle before you can do the back stroke.

You do have to learn to dog paddle before you can backstroke, but the dog paddle you're teaching about modes is wrong.

I used to run around with a guy who called himself The Roy. Complete, spittle-dribbling tool. But he was always good for a laugh. Plus he was always willing to buy another round. Or two.

Just wanted to share. :)

Originally Posted by: hunter60But he was always good for a laugh. Plus he was always willing to buy another round. Or two.

Just wanted to share. :)

Sounds like me and The Roy would get along just fine...

I knew a guy that we called The Bob... he wasn't very cool though.

The only Roy I know is KILROY and he lived in a box.

Originally Posted by: dvenetianFirst thing to clear up any confusion. The word is THEORY and it is spelled T-h e-o-r-y. Secondly oranges and apples make a nice fruit salad as long as their not rotten. If they are fresh and tasty, mix them up, if you get my drift.
The fact is that many songwriters change keys or sometimes use what we call in the industry as borrowed notes. When helping other players to have better success, it's best to share the OJ Theory; just because it doesn't fit and trust me, that glove would have fit if it were tweaked a little bit, doesn't mean you have to throw it out or set it free. All you have to do is lead it back to the cell where it belongs and there are many ways to do that. (This is called theory).
Now let's look at the difference between scales ( say the Major scale) and modes ( let's use the Phrygian mode as an example).
The Major scale intervals are 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 or w-w-h-w-w-w-h.
The Phrygian mode intervals are 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7 or h-w-w-w-h-w-w.
Looks like we may have to add strawberries to the fruit salad and I'll bet they are going to taste great with a little sugar on top (sometimes strawberries can be a little tart). If I were a Postman, I would see two different addresses to deliver to, even though they might be in the same building so to speak.
As a musician you become the delivery boy and maybe the Majors neighbor is hot!!!!!! So borrow some sugar!!!!!! To post something for someone to advance with, it needs to make sense. Dog paddling is for dogs and even dogs don't wish to be thrown out in the ocean. I live on the Pacific Coast and it's rough water as far as the eye can see. Learn theory by stepping over small puddles and it's dry land that you'll build your foundation upon.

You know there's something called the Listening post, Maybe you can give use a sample of this vast knowledge T-h-e-o-r-y you possess. Let's see just how good of a fruit salad chef you are??

Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonWhat? That's simply not true. Scales and modes are simply orders of steps. That's it. The only difference between them is the order of steps, definitely has NOTHING to do with the root note. What do you mean by "primary root note" anyhow? A root note is a root note. A minor and A phrygian have the same root note, A minor and F# Phrygian do not.


You do have to learn to dog paddle before you can backstroke, but the dog paddle you're teaching about modes is wrong.

I guess you are the judge, jury, and executioner, maybe you can give us an example in the listening post of your vast theory knowledge as well, leaving out the poetry!!