Diatonic scale-Most important need to know!

I have heard alot of highly technical terms, and phrasing used by a large majority of musicans to explain the workings of music, and rightly so when you reach a higher level of musical understanding. The problem I see is that alot of beginer musicans asking questions are in no way prepared to grasp higher level musical concepts without a basic musical understanding.
There for me is nothing that can better prepare a less advanced musican than buckling down and learning your diatonic scale throughtout the neck of the gutiar starting at the neck top and learning your way down. I cant stress this enough. So many gutiar players get it ass backwards and try and learn everything else first not comprehending the function of knowing your diatonic scale in whatever key your playing in. For that matter the diatonic scale is the key, and if you dont know it you cant move through out the neck and stay in key. There is nothing more important than being able to stay in key. Now there is no rule set in stone saying what notes a person can put in there songs, but there is a rule allowing each person to decide what sounds good for themselves, and what doesent. If your floating out of key within your playing even those with no musical knowledge will here it, and realize something dosent sound right, and possibly want to leave the building as soon as possible.
I have had many debates with highly knowledgable musicans who can blow you away with the hard to understand musical terms and levels of musical understanding that are very impressive. But some still dont know their diatoinc scale throughout the neck, thus unknowingly handicapping there preformance, and level of improvement. All the fancy terms in the world arent going to make you play better, or faster. Knowing, understanding, and constantly practicing your diatonic scale will.
Now there are going to be some who disagree with this mainly because learning this pattern throughout the neck is not an easy thing to do. It requires much time, and effort. But take it from a 22 year veteran of gutiar playing there can be nothing more important to a gutiarist wanting real improvment in skills, and understanding how music works.
I personaly guarantee those who drop what their practicing, and achieve learning, and studying the diatonic scale will be miles ahead of those who do not. Once you have learned every where your fingers should be, thats when you can really start to manipulate the scale, and become dam creative. I dont care if you play rhythm, or lead, major, or minor it all still falls into the same diatonic pattern that we all play by.
There is more to discuss to fully cover this subject but we got to start somewhere, and besides my intrest is in helping less advanced players improve, I dont belive the higher skilled players would ever admit learning form this post ( even if they did ). We gutiar players are a proud bunch.

I personally hate talking theory -- It's too much like politics.

But I am intrigued by your post. For my students who want to learn theory (I only teach basic--Very Basic theory-- anything else and I send them packing to the music store for a book or tell them to talk to their music/band teachers at school).

For the ones that are interested I always begin with Diatonic Chord Harmony -- Starting with C major and working through all keys etc.

Only when I feel they have an understanding do I go into the Diatonic Scales/Modes and I usually start scales with the Myxolydian (G) in the open position. I am a firm beliver in mastering the first 5 frets and then building upon that foundation.

I'll ususally then go to the Stripped down Aeolian (E) also known as the basic Blues/Pent Scale since most of my students enjoy rock and how can you go wrong with Rock n Roll?

From there I will, depending on the level of interest, go into more depth or just make them aware of the others with chordprogressions and easy scales patterns for them to use in soloing over the chord progressions.

Great Topic.

Fair enough.

I think there's a big leap forward in understanding of how it all works when you know about harmonising the major scale. Once you know that stacking 3rds gives you major triads (and then 7ths and so on) and you can build all of your chords in a basic major scale that way all over the neck, then big things are in your future. :)

Originally Posted by: jimmy_kwtxI personally hate talking theory -- It's too much like politics.

Vote C#m7 in 2008!

It's the difference between a guitar player and a musician... I've become so much more accomplished as a player since I learnt how and why it all works, rather than just following the dots in a scale box or tab.

Tab is kinda like painting by numbers - if you can only do that can you really call youself an artist?

awesome advice...im definitely going to work on it...ive been looking up lessons like mad...theory is always a pain to me...well ive got to start sometime...

Originally Posted by: Mark Pav
Vote C#m7 in 2008!

Sorry but I am going for the Independent Party Asus4add2b13minor9 :D

Originally Posted by: jeffhxawesome advice...im definitely going to work on it...ive been looking up lessons like mad...theory is always a pain to me...well ive got to start sometime...

I dont know exactly whats going on, but almost every theroy book, or instruction book for gutiar I have looked at, ( and even players Ive debated with ) seem to be over complicating a subject thats not inherently that dam complex. Music is just a wide range of pitches that each musican creates to there liking, and mearly learning to stay within key is the point where a person starts becoming good, and better able to start understanding how to further their musical knowledge, and skill.
Some of the best songs are simple note structures arranged in such a creative way we want to here it over, and over. Make it to complex, and technical, and people lose intrest.
I recommend less advanced players put the most effort into studying the term DIATONIC SCALE. Then practice learning it top, to bottom in the keys of C, or G major to start with,( most commonly used ). Know that its not just for lead, chords also fall in diatonic scale. Thats when you will start to break out of the pack.
Dont get me wrong there still alot else to learn, but by that point it will be fun, and more comprehendible. Thats usually the point where a player starts to really get good.

Ok! I got a question bout pentatonics.
So the Major pentatonic comes from the Ionian, but for me it seems that the minor pentatonic is taken from the Dorian not Aeolian. Can someone clear this up for me?

This is why I hate discussing theory.

Theoretically -- You can make a minor/major pentatonic out of any of the modes. If you start in the right place and take out the correct notes.

Or Theoretically -- you can make any scale a pentatonic scale by taking out the correct notes.

See I use Theoretically twice.

Standard Blues Pents have the 2nd and 6th note removed and are based on the relative minor of the major key. This is why I use the Aeolian mode (to help keep it simple I teach Rock and Blues mostly).

Now if you were to go and take the scale patterns of each mode and take out the 2nd and 6th of each scale and play it over a standard 12 bar blues it would not sound all that great.

Theoretically it works or could work. But sound wise it just doesn't. (IMHO).

In Music Theory (all theories for that matter) you can "explain" everything and anything. But there is a difference between a book answer and "real world" answer.

This is where I tend to get my headaches when it comes to music theory.

Don't get me wrong. I feel that understanding of music theory is very important and should be explored by all musicians regardless of the instrument you play.

I just feel that sometimes you can over "theorize" something to a point where people tend to get glassy eyed and just eventually look at you and say-- "Dude, just play something over this chord progression I don't give a rat turd what scale and why you are playing it. Just make it sound good."

I try to teach my students enough Theory so if they are in any type of band setting (jamming with buddies, Church Band [diatonic chord harmony helps in transpositions], auditioning) they can quickly figure something to play at the moment. For more complex scales or pre-arranged solos -- that is what practice/rehearsal if for and that is where theory (in a more complex way) can be applied.

Theory can be a way of helping you to find that chord you are looking when writing a song. Or that feel of a solo. It is a road map of where you want your journey to begin and end.

Has any one head of the "Dodecaphonic" method of writing a song?

It is this crazy grid system that, when complete you have all of these random notes in a certain order (sharps and flats also ) -- not in any specific key and no chords to help you with the melody, and you are to then write a song using the notes in the order that they happen to fall on the grid. What notations you give them is entirely up to you. And the chords, if you so desire to usethem have to be figured out AFTER you have written the melody. And the chords are some reaffly "f"ed up ones.

Weird crap, and "theoretically should not work", and here is the connundrum -- they actually have a theory behind how the grid system works so you can fill out the grid.

Wow-- Long ... sorry. And went of topic.

Now I know some will not agree with me. Some will probrably think I am teaching my students wrong. Maybe maybe not. This is the reason I only go so far in showing them the basics and let them take up more advanced theory with somone else if they are interested enough.

Now Trinivalts. This may have caused more confusion than help. I apologize if this is the case. I use visuals (scale patterns -- "dots in boxes" -- when discussing theory). I think there was a person that posts ocasionally (especially in the this section) that has a web site that may explain it way better than I can.

Good Luck

I find it easier to understand if you relate the pentatonic shapes to the CAGED shapes, so yes, minor pentatonic is Aeolian. As Jimmy says, the minor pentatonic and Aeolian scales are built on the relative minor, or 6th Scale degree of the corresponding major scale.

Bear in mind that the scales are fairly similar in terms of where the boundaries of dots fall. If all you looked at as just which dots went where, you could also say the minor pentatonic is built on a Phrygian, Aeolian or Dorian shape as you say.... :rolleyes:

The hardest thing about theory is that it tends to provide more questions than it does answers until you've absorbed quite alot... but trust me, the minor pentatonic is a minor scale with some notes removed... worry about the scale degree rather than the shapes...

Diatonic Harmony again - ties it all together....

Major, Minor, Minor, Major, Major, Minor, Diminished, Major....

The good thing about pentatonic scales is that the notes in them are completely diatonic for every chord in a given key. For a bit of an example, if someone is playing an Em chord and you happen to play a D note at the same time, then to the listener the D note combines with the sound of the Em chord and they hear an Em7 tonality, which sounds cool.

Now let's say you're in the key of C. The basic chords (triads) are: C Dm Em F G Am Bmb5. The C scale goes: C D E F G A B. Now if you play lead from the C scale over a chord progression in the key of C, chances are that you'll hit some notes that don't quite sound right. For example, if we have an Em chord in our progression and you happen to hit an F note while playing lead, it will combine sonically to form an Emb9 chord, which is gonna sound kinda nasty in a day-to-day diatonic progression. Every chord in the key of C, with the exception of the C and Am chords, will have one note that transforms them into something that would be non-diatonic in the key of that chord. In other words, it would sound funny.

Hmm, I think it's too early in the day for me to be posting theory stuff. :eek: Lol!

Anyways. The good thing about playing from the C major pentatonic scale over a C major progression is that we avoid all of those potentially nasty notes we find in our straight-up C scale. The C pentatonic has these notes: C D E G A. If we add those notes to any of our chords from the key of C we get chords like Cadd9, Dmadd9 and Em6--which are pleasant-sounding chords--instead of weird entities like Dm#13 and Emb9 (chords only a weirdo jazz musician could love ;) ).

So that's the best reason for beginners to learn pentatonic scales to start with; they don't have to deal with the out-of-key sounding notes that sometimes crop up in playing lead right out of a full scale or mode.

While the diatonic scales are great things to have knowledge of I have to say that the kind of importance you are putting on them is blown way out of proportion. I mean if you wanna stick to classic rock or something ok sure that's great but I think you need to stray away from diatonic scales in order to get somewhere in other styles of music. jazz requires a bit more than diatonic scale theory. Blues favors chromatics. Classical music has never stuck to a diatonic pattern. Even metal doesn't stick entirely to the church modes. Sometimes you gotta get away from the diatonic scales and take a risk. I passed that about a year into playing. I couldn't imagine how bland music would be if everyone stuck to your formula.

Originally Posted by: magicninjaWhile the diatonic scales are great things to have knowledge of I have to say that the kind of importance you are putting on them is blown way out of proportion. I mean if you wanna stick to classic rock or something ok sure that's great but I think you need to stray away from diatonic scales in order to get somewhere in other styles of music. jazz requires a bit more than diatonic scale theory. Blues favors chromatics. Classical music has never stuck to a diatonic pattern. Even metal doesn't stick entirely to the church modes. Sometimes you gotta get away from the diatonic scales and take a risk. I passed that about a year into playing. I couldn't imagine how bland music would be if everyone stuck to your formula.

The facted that you had this scale learned by your first year of play was good foresight by you, or your teacher. This gave you the tools needed to branch out, and explore new music with proper technique, and a better musical ear. You would be surprised to know how many players dont know the importance of knowing this scale throughout the neck in at least one key. At least before moving on into the more complex areas of music theroy.
And as you may have seen there were a few readers of my post that thought looking into this subject might help them expand into new areas.
Im just trying to help so that others dont make the same mistakes I did.
And there are still some kick ass tunes being churned out every day that stay within the diatonic scale, and even no further than pentatonic five notes.
I do see what your saying, and agree. Once a milestone has been reached its time to move on to bigger, and better things. Rock on!