avoid notes

Could someone please give me a list of the "avoid notes" of each mode (Dorian, Phrygian,....)?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

:confused:

Oh, then this term isn´t that known as I thought.
As far as I know Avoid notes are notes which in most cases shouldn´t be used as a main melody note (= notes with a long duration, or final note).
For example if you play C ionian over Cmaj7, you shouldn´t use F as a main melody note, because it creates a dissonant sounding interval(b9) with the major 3rd of the chord. So the avoid note of Ionian would be 11.

I actually do know the avoid notes in Ionian(11), Aeolian(b13), Phrygian(b9, b13) and Dorian(13), but I don´t know them for the modes Mixo., and Lydian.

So if someone knows, please tell me.

Originally Posted by: beginnerI actually do know the avoid notes in Ionian(11), Aeolian(b13), Phrygian(b9, b13) and Dorian(13), but I don´t know them for the modes Mixo., and Lydian.

That's funny... the notes you are mentioning are exactly what gives each mode their distinct sound. For example, without the b9 and b13, your "phyrgian" is just the minor pentatonic scale! It seems like you're looking for a vanilla scale to play over each mode... If you really want to be safe (and at the same time bland), don't play anything 1/2 step above or below the root or the fifth. So, in Phyrgian, don't play the b9, which is just above the root, or the b6, which is just above the 5th... this same rules applies to each of the other modes (but again, this is boring soloing!).

There are no "avoid notes", but rather you just need to be careful with your tension and resolution. Experiment! Using the b9 in Phyrgian is totally useful (play an E major chord, then play E, F, G, F, E on the high E string, and then hit the E major chord again... phrygian!)

There is no such thing as "avoid tones". Just a bad melody or a bad voicing (harmony). Like the example you said you shouldn't play F over a Cmaj7 chord. This is probably one of the most common notes that would be played, even on a strong beat. It's called a suspension, they normally resolve down. So F over a Cmaj7 chord would resolve to E. Or G, which is called a retardation. One thing though is you shouldn't over use suspensions, too many can make the melody sound weak. But when used properly they add strenght to a melody.

About the dissonant sound, with the 3rd. Usually when the 3rd is played in one voice, while the 4th is in another voice range. I'll explain better, say you play the C maj7 chord, the E is found on the 2nd fret of the D string. F will probably be played on the 1st fret of the high E string, or anywhere else on the fretboard (same pitch). There is dissonance, but in music dissonance plays the equal counter-role of consonance. Music that's all consonant is like watching a movie with only one actor, BORING!!!

Hey, I didn´t claim that they are prohibited. I do of course know that you can use them, in fact you even should because otherwise it will sound boring.
These notes are just in certain musical situations limited applicable. And of course, you can play every note over every chord.

But when I imorovise I mostly do not end with one of these notes because the danger of a weird sound would be probable. I just use them just as the chromatic notes between the other notes. That´s where my improvisation skills ends, I guess I use too little variety in my solos, in theory.

So the whole avoid notes thing is from a theory book written by Frank haunschild, who is known as a great jazz guitarist, and I don´t see why he should write something scenseless in it.

Yes, but every note over any chord is equally applicable. It just depends on what each (the harmony and melody) are doing. Each does there own thing, however, the goal to having a good sound is that each sounds good by themselves. You don't want to risk damaging a melody because a rule says that this note should not be played. If the melody goes to that note, and it is pleasant, then that's the right note. Just play.

I suggest try writting something that breaks these rules. Example, use F as the dominant re-occuring note in your melody and play over a couple of Cmaj7 chords in the harmony. Make it work. I bet you'll discover something very cool sounding. This goes for every rule that you encounter, learn them and then break them.

When it comes to learning theory from one person's perpective. Your basically learning how they approach theory (especially when they meantion something like "avoid tone"). This is what they have learned from there practices. But keep in mind everybody approaches music in a slightly different way.

I, myself, tend you look for what can be done, and not what shouldn't be done.

Noticing is right, that's what I'll say first of all.

There's a slight flaw in most books that teach jazz improvisation. They usually set you to some standard on how you should play, so you end up getting something that sounds good, but you never really think outside the box.

Usually in those type of books they say to make big use of chord tones, especially the 3rd and 7th. If you are playing D Dorian, you may be playing over a D minor 7th chord. The chord tones are -
D F A C, where you emphasize F (3rd) and the C (7th).

Now as for notes you shouldn't play, let your ears decide that. You may decide that something said in your book is total crap, and you can use any note you want over any chord. It's all up to you. In fact, try this -

Play a progression and record yourself humming over it (this can be done over a small tape recorder, provided you don't use the tape recorder to play the progression), then listen back. Find out what you liked about the melodies you created, and the bginning of the phrases and ends. Then transfer this stuff to guitar. This can be tedious work, but the results are worthwhile. Every one of us has the capacity to come up with melodies, and it'll really shine out in your guitar playing. Oh, one more thing, if you found out you really don't like something you did in the humming exercise, remember not to do it in improvising. Simple.

Hope that helps ya!

i think it's a feel thing, if it sounds good, it is. but most people are overly critical of their own playing
i had an issue with note avoidance over the weekend, and i've had it before, but never heard it discussed.
my brother played something that he created, and i was noodling over it, i'm not even sure what the chords were. but i could play A minor pentatonic, and it sounded okay. but when i tried to play a minor scale, everything worked except for f, and when i tried f# that sounded awful as well. so i just avoided those notes.
i always feel like i'm missing something, like maybe there's a better scale choice and i'm just working with the next best thing.

I think that some people get caught up in the "vanilla sound", and just get turned off when something sounds alittle dissonant. Dissonance is an important part of music because it creates interest, without it the music will sound monotonal. Of course every note sounds right, but sometimes right isn't right and having something alterative is better. It gives the music melodic character to add imperfections, in the same way people's imperfections give them character.

If the lead part is a good melody, and the harmony compliments the melody. Regardless of the notes used it's right. Non-harmonic tones usually resolve to a chordal tone, whether there a passing tone or on a beat. So F# over Am will commonly resolve to E or G# as a connection tone to A, or less commonly down to C. If it goes F# - C - the next note is usually C#. There's three different ways to use F# over an Am chord in A minor. There are others, but those are the most commonly and easily acceptable by the ear.

Your idea of avoid notes is so incredibly worthless. So incredibly worthless.. All you are doing is limiting what you are playing by saying "I can't play this note over this chord!"

~Incidents

But then I have to worry if this theory book is the right one.
But actually it should be, because it got good critics from many musicians and great guitar players, so I´m confused....

Thanks Noticing and the Ace for explanations., and I´d still be interested in some of your songs.

No problem. I'm gonna try to get something written and see what kind of responce I get here. I haven't been able to because the computer I used for recording got all screwed up and I haven't been able to write anything in months. ANd the one I was using, I had to bring into the den. So bouncing back and forth between my room where the reocrding stuff is and the den has slowed me down. But I just got a new comp a couple of days ago, so I should be writting something soon.

so, then i probably should not bother to tune my guitar, then, because if all 12 tones work, then i'd suppose the gaps in between should as well. after all, i lwouldn't want to limit myself.
actually i have seen those micro guitars with steps in between our conventional 12.
everyone has there own way of playing, and what sounds they like or don't.
i love dissonance, without it , music would be bland. and love to play something a little "off" so to speak , it can be fun, and break free of the norm
you can't always acheive the same sound from the same note, even over the same chord, in a different progression, because the overall tone has been set by the other chords in that progression.
and many times it can be how the note is played, ascending, descending, what note you played before it etc.
i new a guy that could make about any scale work over just about anything.
that's great. impressive.
but in making dossonance the norm, there was nowhere to go to to make anything stand out, so his playing although impressive as hell, sounded bland.
tension, resolve is a wonderful thing. but tension doesn't resolve to itself.
this isn't fact, this is opinion based on what i like to hear. if i don't like a note, i don't play it. it may be technically correct, but if i don't like the sound it makes, well, why should i? to prove i can? lol

I used to jam with a guy, he played guitar and I played bass. He never liked to detune his guitar, "said it sounded too muddy and flat". However I liked my bass extremely heavy, so I would detune my B string down to G. We sounded fine because my G and his G were in tune. If they weren't it would have sounded horrible. Our of tune is out of tune. There's no logic in it and I know your just being sacrcastic. ;)

Tension can resolve to itself. In fact entire phrases have been build on strict tension in some of the best known music we have. It's the aural and pyschological effect it has. When the ear hears a tense note, it wants to hear it resolve immediately. So what if it doesn't? The ear will keep listening and waiting for it to resolve, this creates suspense. Suspense is one of the most powerful tools in composition. However if a entire phrase is dedicated to tension the preceding will release the tension, the longer til release the more suspenseful. There's also the risk of having it too long, because then it becomes bland (like you said).

I'm not trying to change your mind on what you want to hear or play, just wanted to point out something.

:D lol it wasn't mean spirited sarcasm. just trying to make a point, which i guess was pointless. after reading what you wrote last, it sounds similar to my thinking, i'm just not as good at expressing myself.
you said "entire phrases built on strict tension "
is there any examples of this in the tricks section for me to experiment with?

Originally Posted by: pikengren
you said "entire phrases built on strict tension "
is there any examples of this in the tricks section for me to experiment with?

I'm not sure. You probably hear it alot but just don't notice it. The 3rd movement of Bruckner's Symp. #9 is probably the most extreme use of what I was talking about. There's a large section where the melody is filled with chromatic lines and the harmony incorpates alot of augmented sixth chords. Another example is in Bartok's Quartet No. 4 where the harmony plays a rhythm with one chord for 8 measures that contains the notes A, B, and C#. All clustered together. Or some modern bands, like Radiohead. The singer has a kanck for singing the 7th over a chord. Dave Matthews does alot with ninth's, usually in the sax. I guess if you want to experiment, you have to accept that this practice is an effect in itself. Music is sound, not science. So if your looking for a particular sound, and one option is as explained. Experiment with sound, this is just another tool you can use.

Theres no such thing as an 'avoid note' man, any mistake can open up a new way of looking at it.

The only thing i can say is, dont play 'sweet child of mine' with a blast beat in the background. :cool:

you are taking that aviod-notes thingy too serious dude - sure - hauenschildt wrote it in his book. but he wasnt saying that these notes are absolute don`ts. its just to display that, in a given harmonical context, there are certain notes, that - for normal musical usage - should better be avoided.