Soloing by humming or trying?


beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
02/25/2004 5:59 pm
So I heard many people saying you should sing or hum something over the riff where you want to write a solo and then transcribe it on guitar, because then you would get an ear for music. So this seems logical and also believe that it works if you do it quite often. So but if I do it this way the solo or a lick sounds OK, but If I just try something within the scale I´m in, then most of the time it sounds better than the humming thing.

So my Question is: Should I continue soloing like I do it now, which at the moment works better and is easier for me, or should I better try witing a solo by the other possiblility?

How do you guys write your solos and do you know how the famous guitar heros write and wrote theirs?
# 1
Jimmi431
Registered User
Joined: 07/19/02
Posts: 185
Jimmi431
Registered User
Joined: 07/19/02
Posts: 185
02/25/2004 8:57 pm
i think this depends on what type of solo you want to create. i would use humming if i was trying to write a more melodic solo where as if i was just going for a raw improvised sound which i normally do as my bands songs are generally very raw i would just play what ever i felt at that moment and it changes everytime i play it. basically its upto you tryin usin a combination of humming to get a good melody then just improvise etc. its all depends on your taste.

The sun is shining the weather is sweet
# 2
basics
Registered User
Joined: 02/05/04
Posts: 441
basics
Registered User
Joined: 02/05/04
Posts: 441
02/25/2004 10:11 pm
I happen to believe that nobody makes up a solo in their head or by humming etc. i mean sure you could hum a solo and then put it on the strings but what kind of lame ass solo would that be? once you practice enough you can sing a riff and play it without even trying. oh yeah, but it is good for the ear, sing something and then figure it out how to put it on the fretboard. that's something good to do.


.... lol. I'm going hardcore booze for a couple days. What I meant to say is putting a melody from your head onto the fretboard and actually getting it to sound how it did in your head has got to be good for the ear. Eventually though, I'm sure most of your melodic ideas will stem from your solo repetoire. Does for me, I'm sure.

[Edited by basics on 02-25-2004 at 05:34 PM]
# 3
beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
02/25/2004 10:34 pm
Originally posted by Jimmi431
basically its upto you tryin usin a combination of humming to get a good melody then just improvise etc. its all depends on your taste.


But my hummed solos are less melodic than my other ones. The other ones are not really improvised I just think of a lick that fits as an intro and then try to create another melodic lick that fits to the one before by trying out as many combinations of notes for example in the Ab- Aeloian as I can think of, and then I put it in my improvisation.

That´s how I write my solos(Ok, I´ve only written 4 complete ones). I think I should post one of these and then ask you if I should continue like this or if I should change something. But for posting I would need a Midi- to Wav Converter, but I can´t find anyone(at least no free one)
# 4
Jimmi431
Registered User
Joined: 07/19/02
Posts: 185
Jimmi431
Registered User
Joined: 07/19/02
Posts: 185
02/25/2004 11:01 pm
if thats the case then you seem to have found your way of doing it. i would continue in that same way if i were you, unless of course you really want to change how you write them. but in the end it only matters if it sounds good to you, and works for you. i mean who cares if the way in which you write a melody differs from some famous players way of doing it. that is the thing about music it is one of the few truly individulistic things you can do, so it doesn't matter how other people do it as everyone approaches things in a different way.
The sun is shining the weather is sweet
# 5
noticingthemistake
Crime Fighter
Joined: 08/04/02
Posts: 1,518
noticingthemistake
Crime Fighter
Joined: 08/04/02
Posts: 1,518
02/25/2004 11:14 pm
If you are coming up with better ideas by just playing, that's cool and is probably what you should do. Humming something over a rhythm helps get ideas out quicker, and if you record yourself humming over a track. It gives you a guideline to what and how to play the solo when you go to figure out what kind of solo and how you want it to sound. Here's how I do it.

1) Hum over the entire part I want to solo over. Usually take a few takes and then choose the one I think expresses a better sounding solo.

2) Go back and measure by measure take what I hummed and figure it out on the guitar. Like I hummed, "da dadada" over a C chord. Then I mess with the C major scale and find something that sounds cool using the "da dadada" I hummed as a foundation of what to play.

Fact is alot of time and unless you sing excellently in tune, the notes you hummed might be alittle flat or sharp. Or you could use what you hummed to figure out something that sounds cooler. Another tip is not to play so much attention to the exact notes you hummed, but how they progress melodically.

So say the second note you hummed was higher than the first, and then it follows this pattern.

higher, lower, same, higher, lower.

You know when you apply the scale, the melody from note to note should follow the same pattern. Often it is possible to figure how high or low the interval is from note to note.

You still have to figure out what it is you hummed and also fix it melodically so that it all fits together. What benefit and problem humming and recording yourself remedies is, "what should I do or play next". And if you go by what you hummed, it should progress for one idea to the next rather smoothly. Both of these are common problems faced by novice soloists and some professionals.

Humming gets the ideas out. The two or three important things to pay the most attention to are:

1) the rhythmic progression of what you hummed. Even when you go back and actually add the solo, it's good not to change the rhytmic progression. Rhythm is the most common cause of breaking the progression of the musical idea. You can add ornamentation but keep the rhythmic motive the same.

2) The melodic progression from note to note (higher or lower). This you can change to make the solo sound better with the harmony play under it. But like the rhythmic motive, be careful not to change the basic interval progression too much.

3) Any synthetic sounds you emulate in your humming. Example would be a wild tremelo or pick slide. You can imitiate the sound where you want it and then just figure out later.

Hopefully that helps. Humming out ideas shouldn't be a strict process, your basically just brainstorming ideas out in sound. Then using your guitar training to make into actually music.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 6
basics
Registered User
Joined: 02/05/04
Posts: 441
basics
Registered User
Joined: 02/05/04
Posts: 441
02/26/2004 12:23 am
Yeah, but do people actually get ideas randomly by wipping out a hummed melodic solo over a progression? Seems to me that soloing is all about repetition and muscle formation and patterns and such. In any genre. The only solo I can think of that may have been brought about by humming is Sweet Child o Mine after the verse and before the chorus, but even still, that's no doubt a product of years and years of playing the same **** over and over. I think if you've got an idea in your head you've no doubt practiced it before or at least played it.
# 7
The Ace
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 11/27/03
Posts: 802
The Ace
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 11/27/03
Posts: 802
02/26/2004 2:03 am
The thing is our ears our accustomed to what sounds right over something, because of all the listening we have done through our lives. You would be surprised at all the melodies you create, because in reality they are lines that you have forged together from solos that you've heard that are exceptable. Nothing you do is completely original, all licks are spins off others, which are spins on others, etc. Even if you don't know it, somebody before you has done something like it. As for me, I could come up with melodic ideas over riffs for hours. I don't know if it works for every1, but I just do it in my head first (like a mental map) then doing it on guitar, with shred and all that stuff thrown in, so it doesn't sound like a random melody, and more like a solo.
Good luck man!
There are only two important things in life - There's music and theres girls, not necessarily in that order....
The Ace's Guitar Tricks
# 8
noticingthemistake
Crime Fighter
Joined: 08/04/02
Posts: 1,518
noticingthemistake
Crime Fighter
Joined: 08/04/02
Posts: 1,518
02/26/2004 3:24 am
In my case it is neither. Yeah I can accept the fact that most of the tunes you come up originate from something you have heard or played before. If I come up with something in my head that's sounds like something that might be familar, I change it so much that it doesn't anymore. Either by making the rhythm or melody line so out of phase, or ornamenting it is such radicals ways. My path is always on trying to create something new and original. I stopped learning other peoples stuff for this very reason. It's much easier to hum out truly original ideas because playing guitar always seems to repeat old patterns. Humming out something old and strange often produces some of my favorite melodies. Stuff that I could never come up with by playing the same patterns on guitar. Yeah there has to be structure and there needs to be some kind of balance to make it coherent, but even these values in music are boundless. Structure is based of equation in mathematics, and mathematics is infinite.

I never hum out random melodies. I usually start with some kind of motive and get it firmly in my mind. And then manipulate it in my mind and then humming it out. Also I always hear something in my head, and even when I listen to other peoples stuff. I'm always thinking of something to put over it. I never hum the tune the song is actually playing, I either harmonize it or think of something original. This could be just me, and the humming ideas may not work for everyone. But for some it does and for me, it's a big part in my art of composing music.

Even if I'm at work and can't write it down, I'll call home and wait for the answering machine to pick up and I'll hum a tune of there. Listen to it when I get home. Better than having a awesome idea and losing it over time.

The best advice is to go with what works for you.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 02-25-2004 at 10:27 PM]
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 9
beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
02/26/2004 3:53 pm
Ok, I´ll follow that advice then and continue playing like this.

Other question to noticing:

Before I start a new threat I thought I could just as well ask you this here. As you maybe still know, I´ve started on Ear Training with Ear Tuner(20 minutes a day). I´m working now at a 7 note range(I recognize the notes how I perceive them and not how high or low they are) and it works pretty well(average 85 percent). But when should I change from clean guitar to medium guitar, because I just tried out medium and the result quite worse.
# 10
basics
Registered User
Joined: 02/05/04
Posts: 441
basics
Registered User
Joined: 02/05/04
Posts: 441
02/26/2004 9:48 pm
Can't say I've ever used that program, nor do I know what medium guitar is. I kind of thought perfect pitch was something you were born with.
# 11
beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
02/26/2004 9:58 pm
Medium guitar is just a option you can choose in ear tuner, means half destorted. And no, in my opinion you can learn perfect pitch without any born skills. I´m now so far that I can most of the time distinguish between the first 7 notes, so why shouldn´t I be able to do this with all? But for details you´d better ask noticing the mistake. He seems to be some kind of an expert on this topic.
# 12
noticingthemistake
Crime Fighter
Joined: 08/04/02
Posts: 1,518
noticingthemistake
Crime Fighter
Joined: 08/04/02
Posts: 1,518
02/27/2004 2:56 am
It sounds like your doing really good, but don't rush yourself. Take your time and really learn it and absorb it. Are you doing the listening technique also?? Anyways, your question. I would just work with one at a time, changing between clean and medium before you have it might confuse you. Get one down, I'd say at least 36 notes (3 octaves) on clean before attempting the others. The reason is the ear will go through different levels, getting deeper and deeper into the sound of a note. The first level is timbre (sound of an instrument). This is easy for the ear to become accustommed too, but it's takes listening at this level for so long before you can start hearing at different levels. So by changing timbre you are only adding on to the time it takes to reach the next level. For that reason I say stay with one until you master it.

Right now you probably are starting to notice something different in each note. So when you hear this little sound (whatever it is), you know what note it is. Maybe it's a buzzing or maybe the string vibrates a certain way. This is a good sign, but even this will eventually break down once you get into your second octave. Then you will notice the high E may not have that same clue, but you will notice something similar in the high and low E. When you can tell a note played in 2 seperate and different octaves. That's when you are really hearing the "color" of a pitch. By the time you get three octaves, pitch color should be developed in your ear. When you start to pick up on that sound, the notes on medium guitar will become easier to distinguish as well. Then other instruments, because pitch color never changes. The timbre does but that distinguishable sound is the same.

I'd suggest if you aren't, take some time playing the notes your practicing on your own guitar, and listening. Although eartune gets you to name the pitches you are still listening to a recording that plays exactly the same everytime. You should know that NO two notes, even played on the same instrument sound exactly the same. That could also be the reason why medium guitar is so much harder. Your ear is becoming only accustomed to the sounds on eartune. And I bet if someone would quiz you and play any note you have studied, having your ear only learning eartunes wavs. You might find yourself bewildered at was note is played.


"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 13
beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
02/27/2004 2:17 pm
No, when I read through the listening techniques, there were some essential words I didn´t understand, and I had no dictionary by me.
And yeah right, the notes begin to sound unique, but often I have to listen deeply to hear that uniqueness. For example the low F sounds kind of warm and soft to me, but the E sounds very cold and hard, is in a bad mood, and kind of refuses. But that´s just I perceive it.

So here is how I´m doing Ear Training, say, if I should change something). At first I do 20 minutes of Ear Tune(I also tried to think of colours lately relative to this picture on Prolobe.com; But only think of these notes, where I feel the colour fits)And now I will also use my own guitar to that exercises, and maybe some other instruments.
Unfortunately I can´t work on EarMaster anymore, because it´s a demo.
So otherwise, later in the day, I listen deeply to this jazzy chords of a Book my teacher copied me.

If I work on with Ear tuner, include my own guitar, and do this with these chords, which would be all together about 30- 40 minutes, is this enough, or should I add some other exercises.

Last question: To learn how to learn a solo or a song by ear: Is it enough if I work on with Eartune?
# 14
noticingthemistake
Crime Fighter
Joined: 08/04/02
Posts: 1,518
noticingthemistake
Crime Fighter
Joined: 08/04/02
Posts: 1,518
02/27/2004 4:16 pm
What is it that you don't understand? That's the most effective exercise for getting the ear in the right shape, even more effective than eartune. But yeah it sounds like your hearing the right things in the notes themselves. Do you have to try to listen or can you perceive it naturally? If you find yourselve trying to hear something then you should do more exercises. Here's one that goes with something your already doing.

When you play your Jazz chords, and say it's 3 notes. Play it and try to listen for each note in the chord. So if you play a C major chord (x320xx), listen for C, then E, then G. Say your listening for E. When you think you have it, mute the guitar, and try to hum the note (from memory), then play E over what your humming to check yourself. If you can master this exercise, then your ear will start to perceive the colors more vividly without you even having to try.

Ear training

Sounds good. One thing that will help is try going through eartune before you go to bed. Just for a few minutes as sort of a refresher. Watch adding other instruments. If you rush or try to do too much, you won't get it, trust me. You should at least be able to get 95+ out of a hundred, before adding another note to eartune. Absolute pitch has more to do with hearing a pitch than recognizing it, recognizing comes naturally and will stick with you for the rest of your life only after you can hear each pitch vividly. So you don't want to add notes until you feel as comfortable naming these pitches as naming the colors of the color palette. So use good judgement before you decide to take another step.

Last question: To learn how to learn a solo or a song by ear: Is it enough if I work on with Eartune?


Yes, any ear training will definitely help with learning songs and solo's by ear. But developing this skill only comes when you practice this skill. Figuring out as many songs as you can on your own is the best way to accomplish your goal in this area. Ear training will speed up the process and make it easier, but you still have to do the skill. There is software out there to slow down music to aid you, so check that out.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 15
kingdavid
Registered User
Joined: 01/25/02
Posts: 1,149
kingdavid
Registered User
Joined: 01/25/02
Posts: 1,149
02/28/2004 12:37 pm
Originally posted by basics
...but do people actually get ideas randomly by wipping out a hummed melodic solo over a progression...

I thought that that is what soloing/improvising is?


# 16
beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
beginner
Registered User
Joined: 07/27/03
Posts: 280
02/28/2004 3:09 pm
Originally posted by noticingthemistake
What is it that you don't understand?


So I´ve read though the listening techniques again, and the only thing that I don´t understand is this exercise:

If you are practicing chords. The step by step approach is:

1) In your mind say the chord. i.e. minor triad, major seventh.
2) Play the chord in broken form. Root to highest note and back down to root.
3) Play chord harmonically.
4) Repeat step 1.
5) Mentally replay the broken chord in your mind.
6) Check by playing the chord back in broken form.
7) Repeat step 1.
8) Mentally replay back chord harmonically as heard in step 3.
9) Play the chord on your guitar to check yourself.

What´s a minor triad? I only think of chords in F major and so on..

What´s a broken chord and a chord played harmonically?


# 17
sambob
Registered User
Joined: 08/09/03
Posts: 450
sambob
Registered User
Joined: 08/09/03
Posts: 450
02/28/2004 3:38 pm
I think its just a load of crap really..

For one, I CAN'T hum my solos. They're too fast, too complicated, and out of the range that my voice can handle. I can hum maybe 4 different notes, not much help when matching it against an instrument with a range of many octaves.

I can hear everything I want in my head, why should I bother using my voice?
# 18
Jamiephofe
Registered User
Joined: 02/22/04
Posts: 165
Jamiephofe
Registered User
Joined: 02/22/04
Posts: 165
02/28/2004 4:03 pm
http://www.good-ear.com/

There is a good site to check out if you want to improve your ear training.

Ear training for me is most useful when im trying to improvise, if I know what my playing will sound like before I play it, then I can just play straight from what im thinking. Obviously if you know the notes in your head thats ok, I just think singing the notes helps to get it in your memory.


# 19
TheDirt
Registered User
Joined: 03/28/02
Posts: 569
TheDirt
Registered User
Joined: 03/28/02
Posts: 569
02/28/2004 5:59 pm
I have trouble attributing adjectives to notes. I've always had decent relative pitch (I could pick out Mary Had a Little Lamb anywhere on the fretboard), and with some work it became just about perfect. Absolute perfect pitch, however, is something I've only just been recently working on. I can tell a G is a G and not some other note because I hear it and just know it's a G, however, it's not because it sounds "bright" or "dark" or "stubborn" or "green" or whatever the hell they suggest you picture it as... I just listen and know it's a G. Why use adjectives?

I've never been a fan of using things to help you remember. Ex - My next biggest hobby after music and shooting pool is playing cards. I was working on a system to memorize every card that has been played (not to cheat at blackjack, but helpful in any game, like spades, for example). I purchased a Memory Improvement book which suggested that I had a mental picture to attribute to each card. Helpful? No way, instead of memorizing what card came out, you have to memorize the picture, AND memorize what picture belongs to what card. I don't even like the EGBDF = Every Good Boy Does Fine way of learning the musical staff. Hell, just take some time and memorize it. Don't memorize 5 WORDS when you can memorize 5 LETTERS insteaed... Sorry for the rant, I just woke up and I'm not a morning person.

Oh, and a final note about humming solos - I find that humming does NOT help me with creating solos, I generally am playing a bit faster than I can hum. HOWEVER, humming ideas does help me establish melodic motives and themes for songs, as well as helping me to mimic the singer in a call and response type fashion. It's a good way to come up with a melodic, slow solo. I mean, it's difficult to hum something bad over a progression - my mind won't allow me to hum anything that sounds stupid :)
"You must stab him in the heart with the Bone Saber of Zumacalis... well, you could stab him in the head or the lungs, too... and the saber, it probably doesn't have to be bone, just anything sharp lying around the house... you could poke him with a pillow and kill him."

- Aqua Teen Hunger Force, The Universal Re-Monster
# 20

Please register with a free account to post on the forum.