Modes and Key

Ok, this is my question for you fine intelligent peoples.

Take the A Natural Scale and its Modes.

The question is.

When I change modes, does this change key or just the root note? I ask this because when I play the modes I tend to move back to the nearest A no matter what mode I play. The scale just doesn’t sound complete until I touch an A for the ending note.

Take E Phrygian for example: E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E
Is that really the key of A, I know it is the notes of A Natural Minor, but what key?

My conclusion is that I got to shift all the mode patterns to change key, and that is something that I would spend allot of time getting use to for Improvising and stuff.

Yeah. When a mode is used in a composition, it is customary to write the key signature to it's relative major or minor. So yeah, if your playing a tune in E phyrgian, the key signature is A minor.

If your playing A as the last note; your in fact playing A natural minor, not E phyrgian. Even if you start the tune with E, remember the first note can either be the root of the fifth. E is the fifth of A. So actually your not playing a mode.

To play in a phyrgian mode, start and end the tune with E using those notes. It will have a pull towards A, because it's the minor tonic. Everything has a pull to the tonic. Try writting a tune but have the last two notes be D then E, like a cadence. This is known as the phrygian cadence.

If your using this scale over a harmony, or to write a melody. Try using the spanish phyrgian instead (EFG#ABCDE), or the altered (EF#G#ABCDE). The first is A harmonic minor, and the second is A ascending melodic minor. You'll get better results.

The harmony of a phrygian mode is easy to pick out because the first chord is V7 in a minor scale, and it also ends there. If the cadence is used as V7-i. The melody as I stated in the previous paragraph, but then drop to A when the tonic (i) is played.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 02-05-2004 at 09:41 PM]

Thank you very much, you are a very brilliant person. You answered my question with extreme accuracy and precision. I now have a much more clear understanding of the concept. Ill be sure to come to you when I have a question. Thanks again.

That's why they pay him the big bucks.

I dont understand Christoph.

Either do I. :confused: This mofo aint getting paid a cent.

Thanx for the kind words, Koolen. Anytime you have a question, I'll do what I can to help you out.

Ohhh, nevermind. :rolleyes:

So what's been happening around here lately, 'mofo'?

Same old, same old. Mode question here, key question there. ;) Where have you been lately, christoph? You and the other chris haven't been around much lately.

Well I've said it before, but there are only so many "what is a mode" questions that I can answer before I go bonkers. There were some new members around that seemed to be answering everyone's questions well enough, so I kinda checked out for a while.

I'm still looking for a decent job in this toilet economy. Still playing guitar, learning some classical stuff. Ever heard of the book called "Challenge the Masters"? I highly recommend it.

Yeah. Isn't that a book where it teaches you classical pieces for electric guitar??

Yeah, it's the bomb.

Yo!
Puttin together a new band....been busy.

Cool. Best of luck to you on that.

I would defintely like that book, I usually have to transpose everything from midi. Pain in the arse, be nice if someone already did that for me.

If you get Finale you can dump the midi-tracks into it and it will print out the music....will even transpose it to any key you want.

Yeah, pretty excited about the band, got a good feeling about this one. It's a Flamenco/jazz trio called "Tres Compadres", kinda taking off where Paco de Lucia left off on "Solo Quiero Caminar". It's a trio comprised of guitar/nylon str., bass, and percussion. The other 2 guys are really amazing. The bass player you's to study w/Jaco, and has played w/saxophonist Richie Cole. The percussionist has recieved gov. grants to travel abroad and study from musicians in Spain and Cuba, he also had a short pbs documentary done on him for this 1 man band show he used to do. We set out this spring to conquer the world.

You can do the same thing with PowerTab. Just import the midis and it outputs the tab. Sometimes the fingerings are completely impossible, but it's better than nothing.

Yeah I got Finale too and use it all the time. I love it, Great program. Alittle hard to get used to but it does anything and everything you want. That's what I use to write out the midis. As for reading music, haven't taken time to learn. I can read tab and rhythm perfectly, but notes on the staff can confuse me. I should probably just learn that, I know it wouldn't take long but I got alot of other things to work on.

Finale like power-tab can write out the tab, but it also writes some awfully hard fingerings. When taking a midi and figuring it out, still gotta fix that and I also like learn string quartets. And well I like playing the best parts, so I have to switch between instruments. Playing the violin part at one point, then the viola. That book would definitely be something I would be interested in.

As for your band, that's awesome that you've gotten together with such good musicians. My great great grandfather got to travel around the globe and learn from different musicians. He actually studied under alot of the great composers of the late 19th and 20th centuries. I have his journals now, great stuff but not much on Jazz. But yeah I hope you guys do well. Let me know if you guys put up something to listen to.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 02-08-2004 at 09:20 PM]

That must be really cool to read those journels..to have that personal insight into someones'life and see how things really were.

Yeah it is definitely different but the same too. It doesn't read too much like a personal journal, more like an interpretation of the world. Alot of stuff he learned from different musicians in europe and america. Some theories but alot more open than most of the text books of today. Like voicings, it does quote on the augmented fourth as being a interval that can be better voiced, and avoided being another solution is possible. The same with parallel octaves and fifths in voicings, there is usually a better voicing to be found. Although if the answer is unpleasant in context, parallel voices are ok. Alot of the ideas in it are more about options rather than restrictions. I think it's because alot of text books on music theory are based from the theorist perspective. He wrote from the musicians, which is the biggest difference. Then theres stuff on composition, orchrestation, and some other things. Your pretty lucky to know someone who has had the same type of experience. Not only are things different in time, but different places of the world have different and unique ideas.

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
different places of the world have different and unique ideas.

Yeah.
The latin / spanish cultures use of rhythm is much more complex then found in european music. There is much more emphasis on the triplet and complex subdivisions found within. In flamenco music they actually think in rhythmic phrases, usually in 12's, with accents falling on various beats..usually 3,6,8,10,& 12.This totally defeats the european tradition of bar lines and measures and the restrictions that fall within. With this new project we are utulizing the rhythmic techniques and song forms of latin cultures with the complex harmonic and improvisational aspects found in jazz.

So it's like a Latin Jazz sort of thing? That's definitely cool man. Yeah, european music is highly metrically for good reason though. The compositions are derived from a symetrical form that creates movement and interest by variation. It's hard to keep that all coherent when the rhythm pulse is so eccentric. Dance (latin) music being more about the rhyhtm, and not so much about variation ables group rhythms to make the music. Middle eastern music is another that is completely different. It is ametric (no rhythmic pulse) and the heart of composition is based on ornamentation. I know a few Jazz musicians have gone down similar paths too. However I imitiate similar ideas by just continuously progressing the rhythm patterns to the harmonic rhythm. A neat idea that leaves you with ever changing time sig's like 15/16, and so on. Sysmetrically at the same time as complex on the rhythm side of things.