Question for Chris Mood (aka Theory Master)

Originally posted by noticingthemistake

Looking at your voicing, all cool but something I will bring to attention is the voicing for the mb13 chords sound like other chords. The first one (1x112x) sounds like a Fm7#5 chord or even Db9/F, or clearer in the second one (xx1121) Eb11. I know a 5th isn't a great combo but for a distinctive b13 sound, I think it needs to be there. Otherwise we can think of a b13 as a #5 without conclusion. [/B]

That's the "give and take" of the instrument, we only have 4 fingers to work with, and like stated, it rarely sounds good when you try to jam all the notes in there. So you have to ask yourself "do I play these notes because ther Supposed to be in the chord" or "do I leave out a few tones and play something that sounds more satisfying to the ear". You find, after awhile, that you will hardly miss those notes anyway, the overtone series will take of 5ths' and Roots.

For the record, I would play Fminb13 as such (xx6668)

[u]Misinterpretation[/u]

Interesting. I hope your not holding true to the 9th being the defining difference. The 9th is optional and it only used to intensify the 7th, the 9th is a suspension (sus2) just over a 7th chord. In most 11th chords the 9th is left out because of the dissonant stacking of the root, 2n, 3rd, (#)4th, and 5th together in one chord. Two suspensions in one work doesn't work in my opinion. Something needs to be left out, like you said in your next post. The 5th will be the common first, then the 9th. In a #11 chord the 5th must stay though, otherwise it's a b5. In the dominant and minor version it's most likely a b5. In the melodic minor the dominant#11 will sit on the IV chord, any other time it's a dominantb5 chord. The minor version I have never seen and to me it's wrong, a #11 and 5th together sounds bad on a minor chord. Choose one, and if it's the #11, it's more commonplace to call it a m7b5 or (if you really want that 9th) m9b5.

[u]Voicing on a minor #11 chord [/u]

It still sounds unfavorable to me, maybe on a big band it may sound better but on one instrument it's just bad. I like the blues too, being the #11 in nothing more than a b5. Still sounds bad in one chord on one instrument. May only be heard in extreme situations.

[u]11th are suspensions[/u]

I'm not sure why you don't see that, a 11th is a 4th right? You said yourself the 11th had a "sus" quality. Your 9th, 11th, and 13th chords are just new stacks above the 7th. That's true because in all those chords the 7th has to be there. If not it's either a sus2, sus4, or 6th. If you hold true to the 9th being the difference, read the first paragraph. A G7sus2 is exactly a G9, we just don't write G7sus2. Same with the 11th, it's just a G7 with a sus4 stacked on top of it. As you go up in those chord, the previous intervals don't have to be played. Like a 13th chord, you don't need to play the 9th or 11th, just as long as you have a 13th (6th), 7th, and root. It's a 13th chord.

[/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE]

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 11-07-2003 at 09:46 AM]

I'm not referring to the 9th, but the 3rd. In G11 the 3rd would be present, in G7sus4 the 3rd would not.
As far as #11 chords, I'll try to post some examples.

Originally posted by chris mood
I'm not referring to the 9th, but the 3rd. In G11 the 3rd would be present, in G7sus4 the 3rd would not.
As far as #11 chords, I'll try to post some examples.

Ah. Good point. Although I think of the 11 chord as having a optional 3rd for that very reason. The only time it would clearly need a 3rd is if it was minor. Most of the time the 3rd is there anyways. 3rd's actually sound ok in sus4 chords, take this Csus4 (x32011). No I wouldn't think of it as an Fmaj9/C. I think once you start playing with the harmony above a triad, like 7th's. Additional harmony becomes 9th's not 7sus2, 11th's not 7sus4, and 13th chords. You can play a major or dominant 11th chord without the 3rd and the tonal color of the chord is still the same, only a slight alteration. Excellent way to show the difference though.

Yeah, I would like to see an example of a minor#11 chord. It's very strange and I would think it would be very rare in music. I've seen the others, but rarely.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 11-07-2003 at 12:24 PM]

When you put the 3rd in sus4 chords you get this wonderful airy sound.

Originally posted by noticingthemistake

I think once you start playing with the harmony above a triad, like 7th's. Additional harmony becomes 9th's not 7sus2, 11th's not 7sus4, and 13th chords.
[Edited by noticingthemistake on 11-07-2003 at 12:24 PM] [/B]

O.K., that's a cool POV, but I think your leaving a lot to be assumed. Theoretically a G7sus4 has no 3rd, a G11 does.
How you personally approach each chord is cool, but if you write G11 and you don't want the 3rd played your assuming the musician is going to be thinking the same way you do, better off writing G7sus4, that way there is no confusion. Look what happen to Christoph w/that minor 13th chord, an agreed upon universal musical language will help musicians bridge the gap between composer/performer.

That is right, and I think I might use that from now on. If I wanted the guitarist to play a G11 w/o a 3rd, I would write it as such G11(no3rd). I wouldn't leave that to be assumed, and truthfully when I give out a chord chart. I actually write the chords how I want them to be played. The catch is sometimes I leave out the third in chords, or want that. One I like to do that on is 9th chords, take this G9(no3rd) played as (xxx065), then go to Dmaj (xx0232) after. I think that sounds nice. I know where your coming from though.

Yes 3rd's within sus4 does have a nice airy sound. If I do that I usually don't hold the sus4 for very long. But if you really want to air that chord out, lose the 5th. Csus4 as (x32x11).

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 11-07-2003 at 03:55 PM]

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
[u]Misinterpretation[/u]

In most 11th chords the 9th is left out because of the dissonant stacking of the root, 2n, 3rd, (#)4th, and 5th together in one chord. Two suspensions in one work doesn't work in my opinion. Something needs to be left out

Better notate that as G11(omit the 3rd & 9th), or you could just call it G7sus4. -LOL- :)

Fm13???????? Who writes this garbage?, but an incompetent.
Extensions beyond a 7th are ALWAYS dominant!!!!!!! Whatever theory you believe. This logic can not be rewritten. I am amazed and astounded by the persons that try. Fm13=Bb7

Anytime a tritone exists, it's dominant. Like it or not.
Understand this rule! It's probably the most important rule in music. Especially, in American music.

Originally posted by griphon2
Fm13???????? Who writes this garbage?, but an incompetent.
Extensions beyond a 7th are ALWAYS dominant!!!!!!! Whatever theory you believe. This logic can not be rewritten. I am amazed and astounded by the persons that try. Fm13=Bb7

Definitely adding 2 many extensions on to a chord will change the character of the chord to an inversion of something else. Here's my POV on chord qualities and the acceptable extensions they can go up too: Aug (triad only), Dim. (7), Maj. (9), Min. (11), and Dom. (13).

In Christophs' case the arranger was actually asking for a Fminb13, which would make it Bbmin7

Exactly, an arranger or composer that wants his or her material played, must be reasonable. Ambiguous writing like Fm13 defeats being played. Does the writer want Fm, a suspension, or a dominant type? Simplicity is the key.

Even Fmb13, is a bit ambiguous. F,Ab,C,Db.
Bbm7=Bb,Db,F,Ab. What's the real change? A few suspensions in a combined spelling, either version. Even dropping the 5th of either... what's the real change? Knowing where it's going would be helpful.

A standard rule of thumb I use when writing chords symbols in most all types of music, that works 98, 99 percent of the time, barring certain exceptions, such as: certain 12 tone systems, clusters, pink and white noise, aleatoric, etc., is this:
I & IV = Maj7, 6/9, #11
ii, iii, iv = 7th or 9th (m11 mostly functions as a modified dominant or V7, a writing or notation preference.)
V7 = m7-5 or dim7, 9, 11, 13, # or b 5, 9 or 13.
Covers nearly everything logically, theoretically and easily readable.

Any unqualified 7 always = a b7, always. Chords larger than a 7 must conform to certain rules.
m7 must have at minimal a m3 and b7.
V7 must have at minimal a M3 and b7.

At minimal, this example, Fm13, can't be a minor 13th chord. Minimal chord tension would be b3, b7, 13. (Ab, Eb, D) This can't be anything but a tritone. In this case the tritone is more powerful than the Maj7, or my view, a mess or an affect or effect. And wouldn't notate in that manner.

[Edited by griphon2 on 11-11-2003 at 12:47 PM]

Originally posted by griphon2
Fm13???????? Who writes this garbage?, but an incompetent.
Extensions beyond a 7th are ALWAYS dominant!!!!!!! Whatever theory you believe. This logic can not be rewritten. I am amazed and astounded by the persons that try. Fm13=Bb7

What a joke! Not all extensions beyond a 7th are dominant!! Here's a great example - Am9, voiced 0, 2, 4, 1, 3 (A, E, B, C, G) is not a dominant chord, it's a minor 9th chord. It does not function as a dominant, nor does it sound like a dominant. It is garbage, as you say, to try to make this a dominant chord. I mean, that would be almost as ridiculous as calling this a Cmaj7(13)/A.

Dirt, I was beside myself. It's like a bur. When constantly ignored creates... a problem. You're right. BUT, read previous. Should solve the problem, I'll try any view if it comes to understanding. I'm really not hard too, or too hard to, get along with. (I hate prepositions and adverbs) It is what we use to communicate. Somehow, I'll be understood. Be kinder than me, and thanks.

Dirt is right, not everything is a dominant. What defines chords like 9th, 11th, and 13th is there added harmony to the 7th chord (6/9 being the exception since it's a harmony on a 6th). Each actually stacks a new level of tension. 9th's are sort of airy, some tension but not as much as the 11th chord. 13th chord are really tense since the important intervals 6th, 7th, and root all collide. It's this color or quality of sound that makes us think of such chords. We know a 9th chord because of the way it sounds. That's what important about these chords is there sound, at least I think it should be. Even though a dominant chord (or other chord form) may exist within certain chords, it's important to draw some distinction between them rather than pushing them together by excluded or adding notes to make a new chord work. Myself, a composer would write a mb13 chord because I want the tension of the 5th, b6th, 7th, and root in one chord or broken. There are easier ways of writting that chord but it's that tension that makes me think of a 13 chord. Altered chords are nothing more than sub'in a chord with a chord outside the key. A perfect and common example is secondary dominants.