Modes and Their Chords


Josh Redstone
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Josh Redstone
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09/26/2003 3:07 pm
Okay, I have two things I need help clarifying.
Firstly, when your talking modes, and the chord type for each degree of the scale, (maj, min, dom7, etc..) you could figure them out the same way you do for a major scale, as in, counting up three notes, skipping a note every time to get your major or minor triad, right?
Second, if that is how it works, then how is it that those Jazz guys make their songs so catchy? I tried doing the thing I said above, and I realized all the cadences get switched around, so your 5-1 cadence isnt a perfect candence anymore, so then, how are you supposed to get a good chord progression going if your trying to emphasise the key note of the mode instead of the keynote of the major scale its comming from, and all those cadences are so weak?
Anywhoo, I'd really like some help with this one. Thanx a million.
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# 1
chris mood
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chris mood
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09/26/2003 4:12 pm
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Josh Redstone
I tried doing the thing I said above, and I realized all the cadences get switched around, so your 5-1 cadence isnt a perfect candence anymore, so then, how are you supposed to get a good chord progression going if your trying to emphasise the key note of the mode instead of the keynote of the major scale its comming from, and all those cadences are so weak?

?!?!... quite perplexed, you must have done something wrong to come up with imperfect cadences.

The 2 5 1 progession in jazz is equivalent to the 1 4 5 in pop and rock, start by getting used to improvise over this 1st. In the key of C maj that would be Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7. 1st get used to soloing/improvising/phrasing in the major key. Then try outlining the chord tones within the progession. Then try playing lines that resolve to the next chord.

For instance, for a jazzy sound try plaing a phrase that resolves the 7th of the Dmin7 chord (C) to the 3rd of the G7 chord (B), this should happen either on the down beat of 1, or the up beat of 4 (anticipation). Next, try playing a phrase that resolves the 3rd (B) or 7th (F) of the G7 chord to the Root (C) or 3rd (E) of the Cmaj 7th chord.

Thirdly, get some lessons w/a reputable jazz guitar instructor in your area, this is not easy stuff to learn.
# 2
TheDirt
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TheDirt
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09/26/2003 5:04 pm
Traditional cadences aren't as important in modal progressions as they are in diatonic major and minor. Check this G Dorian song I wrote for example.


Section A
Gm7 to Am(b13) (nice, slow fingerpicking
|-------1----------------1---------|
|-----3-----3----------5-----5-----|
|---3---------3------5---------5---|
|----------------------------------|
|------------------0-------------0-|
|-3-------------3------------------|

Section B
Bb to C to Gm (slap/pop guitar)
(note, that's not 11 or 33, it's two quick slaps)
|----------------------------------------|
|------3--------5------------------------|
|------3--------5--------------3---------|
|------3--------5---------5---x---5--3h5-|
|-1-11---1/3-33---3----------x-----5-----|
|--------------------3-33---x---3--------|


Now, the first section is a vamp on the i and ii

The second section is a "modal cadence" of III, IV, i. This is not a traditional cadence, BUT IT SOUNDS GOOD. That is the test. When working with modes, you have to test out various progression to see what works with what.

With some experimentation, I've discovered a couple good "cadences" for some modes. I will write the chords IN RELATION TO THE IONIAN MODE FOR EASE OF UNDERSTANDING. So, that Dorian progression would be IV V ii.

Ionian - I, IV, V (DUH!)
Ionian - ii, V, I (another duh)
Dorian - IV, V, ii
Phyrgian - iii, IV, V, IV, iii
Lydian - IV, V, IV
Mixolydian - V, IV, I, V
Aeolian - vi, V, IV, III
Aeolian - vi, ii, vi, iii
Aeolian - vi, iii, IV, V, #Vdim
Locrian - I don't like this mode, and haven't messed with it much

Anyone with any other ideas feel free to add ideas, comments, criticisms, etc...
"You must stab him in the heart with the Bone Saber of Zumacalis... well, you could stab him in the head or the lungs, too... and the saber, it probably doesn't have to be bone, just anything sharp lying around the house... you could poke him with a pillow and kill him."

- Aqua Teen Hunger Force, The Universal Re-Monster
# 3
Josh Redstone
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Josh Redstone
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09/26/2003 5:14 pm
So, I could use some of those major scale candences, but they would just fall on different scale degrees? Cool. I guess I'll just play around and try to make up some chord progressions to solo over in different modes and see what works.
Using chords with more colour tones would probably make things sound more interesting as well I guess.
Anywhoo, thanks for the advice, but my first question, about putting together chords by counting up three but skipping every second note, that stuff works with modes, right? (I cant see why it wouldn't, I just wanna be sure)



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-And it was good
# 4
noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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09/26/2003 5:18 pm
Here's a list of cadances for different modes.

Ionian : V7-I
Dorian : v-i or V7-i
Phrygian : bii-i
Lydian : II7-I or V(7)-I
Mixolydian : bVII-I7 or v-I7
Aeolian : v-i or V7-i or bVII7-i (the last one is most commonly seen when coming from a major chord progression to a minor chord progression)
Locrian : bV-io

Those are the most common 'cadances' for each mode. Remember there are always exceptions so just go by what you want to hear.

Yeah the second Q is right.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 09-26-2003 at 12:24 PM]
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
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Josh Redstone
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Josh Redstone
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09/26/2003 5:43 pm
Awsome. I think I'll start jotting out progessions and scales and do some improvising to get an idea of what all this actually sounds like.
Thanx again everyone.
And God said, 'Let there be rock!'
-And it was good
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Jolly McJollyson
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09/30/2003 12:29 am
Originally posted by TheDirt
Locrian - I don't like this mode, and haven't messed with it much


I bet I can tell you why you don't like Locrian mode. Let's observe it from B-B with no sharps or flats.

B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B

Where does that B want to go? that's right, it gives a pull towards the C an half step above it. Locrian mode is just plain goofy.
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# 7
noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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09/30/2003 11:36 pm
Yeah the locrian is a weird mode, probably the least used. But if your looking to write something dark, that's your scale. It's a good way to end a piece also, and the key behind that is you start the chord progression with a VIIo, but end it on the I chord. Not always VIIo straight to I but maybe VIIo-IIIo-VImin-IV-I. Basically your moving down in the circle of fifths and then back up to the tonic. So the chord progression in C major is Bm7b5 - (f major)Em7b5 -Amin (maj depending on strenght)- Fmaj - Cmaj.

This is a great way to conclude a piece if you have modulated between C major and F major somewhere in the piece. A common example is the main theme in C major and maybe the bridge in F major. Concluding with both familiars in the final movement will give a greater sense of resolution.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 09-30-2003 at 06:39 PM]
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
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griphon2
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10/01/2003 1:12 am
What is this key ditty? Until our instruments advance, we're sort of stuck. Music is moving forward. But, soon you'll need a PHD, or PHD's. We'll PHD ourselves out of a living. Oh, the arguments. You're just a schmuck playing guitar, and have no idea how you're being screwed. Why are advertisers using old material. Because new material is horrid (and think for a moment that is not planned) , or advertisers have there own POV or just lazy, or you just screw yourself out of a job? This world is very competitive. It shouldn't mean, you can't get heard, and, if of merit. Is that bucks, or art. The greatest problem in life, is really, understanding a very good con.
A lie goes around the world before the truth gets it's shoes on. (Mark Twain)
# 9
chris mood
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10/01/2003 6:20 pm
Locrian #2 is much more common, it defuses the leading tone resolution to the relative major.
# 10
TheDirt
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TheDirt
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10/01/2003 6:38 pm
Originally posted by Josh Redstone
if that is how it works, then how is it that those Jazz guys make their songs so catchy?


Many jazz songs are not written by making a chord progression and making a melody over it, but rather from making a melody then fitting a chord progression underneath it. "Take Five" for example... chords were an afterthought. Many hymns are like this too. "Amazing Grace", for example - what's important, the chords or the melody? The great songwriters make a melodic hook and then write the chords under it. That's why many popular songs have a super-simple chord progression - it's the melody (sung or played) that's important. Another song just came to mind - "Sleep Walk". Very catchy, due to the melody, not the progression (which is just a I, vi, IV, V).
"You must stab him in the heart with the Bone Saber of Zumacalis... well, you could stab him in the head or the lungs, too... and the saber, it probably doesn't have to be bone, just anything sharp lying around the house... you could poke him with a pillow and kill him."

- Aqua Teen Hunger Force, The Universal Re-Monster
# 11
noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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10/02/2003 9:25 pm
Locrian #2 is much more common, it defuses the leading tone resolution to the relative major.


Yeah that would be a good scale to harmonize over those diminished chords in the progression I wrote. You’ll hear the locrian #2 a lot in jazz, and similar genres. It’s not uncommon to have it play a larger part in the composition either. The locrian is heard the majority of the time in endings cause of it’s “fading away” effect, usually climaxed by a major tonic chord. It’s hard to think of a diminished chord playing a center role in the developing parts of a song.

Many jazz songs are not written by making a chord progression and making a melody over it, but rather from making a melody then fitting a chord progression underneath it. "Take Five" for example... chords were an afterthought. Many hymns are like this too. "Amazing Grace", for example - what's important, the chords or the melody? The great songwriters make a melodic hook and then write the chords under it. That's why many popular songs have a super-simple chord progression - it's the melody (sung or played) that's important. Another song just came to mind - "Sleep Walk". Very catchy, due to the melody, not the progression (which is just a I, vi, IV, V).


Yeah that’s been a debate since the beginning of music theory. Whether to write the melody first, then the chord progression or the chord progression first and then the melody? I always try to write the melody first, chord progression next. I find that as you try to figure a melody over a chord progression. The melody always seems to be limited and strictly connected to the C.P. Confliction always comes next. Since I usually hum the melody mentally and the chord progression seems more scientific. With a little theory behind me it’s easy to figure out a chord progression and explore it’s range more creatively. Especially if the melody changes key one or more times. I don’t believe it’s wrong to start with the chord progression first, especially if that’s what works for you. Depends on where the inspiration comes from in my opinion. I will say the melody is the most important line in music, whichever way you are more creative with the melody. That’s your way.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
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chris mood
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10/03/2003 4:44 pm
Originally posted by TheDirt
Another song just came to mind - "Sleep Walk". Very catchy, due to the melody, not the progression (which is just a I, vi, IV, V). [/B]


Great song! I love Larry Carltons' version.
# 13
Josh Redstone
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Josh Redstone
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10/03/2003 7:57 pm
I just figured out my confusion over cadences was really goofy. I was thinking the chord types determine the type of cadence, I wasn't thinking pitch. (That was dumb :rolleyes: )
Anyway, I've got this stuff down, its all really interesting. Kinda makes me wanna play Jazz.
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-And it was good
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TheDirt
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TheDirt
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10/04/2003 6:04 pm
Sleepwalk... I like Satch's version :)
"You must stab him in the heart with the Bone Saber of Zumacalis... well, you could stab him in the head or the lungs, too... and the saber, it probably doesn't have to be bone, just anything sharp lying around the house... you could poke him with a pillow and kill him."

- Aqua Teen Hunger Force, The Universal Re-Monster
# 15
chris mood
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10/04/2003 8:58 pm
Satch playing Sleepwalk?!?,,,,,what cd is that off of?
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TheDirt
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TheDirt
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10/04/2003 11:27 pm
His latest, "Strange, Beautiful Music" - not an amazing cd, but there're some good tracks, and almost every one is definately "listenable"
"You must stab him in the heart with the Bone Saber of Zumacalis... well, you could stab him in the head or the lungs, too... and the saber, it probably doesn't have to be bone, just anything sharp lying around the house... you could poke him with a pillow and kill him."

- Aqua Teen Hunger Force, The Universal Re-Monster
# 17
griphon2
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10/05/2003 12:47 am
Listen to Larry Carlton's (Sleep Walk). It DOES old view and new view.
A bit stilted to me, but real honest.
A lie goes around the world before the truth gets it's shoes on. (Mark Twain)
# 18
chris mood
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10/05/2003 11:35 pm
I never thought I'd see stilted and honest used in the same sentence.
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griphon2
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10/07/2003 1:11 am
Sort of, think how he thinks. Probably, one of the best impromtu guitarist I've heard. Another art, heh!

[Edited by griphon2 on 10-06-2003 at 08:14 PM]
A lie goes around the world before the truth gets it's shoes on. (Mark Twain)
# 20

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