14 modes? check it out

I found on a website (http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/misc/modes.html) 12 modes from renaissance music that at first seemed to have no point. These 12 were as follows:
Ionian- w w h w w w h
Hypoionian (mixolydian)
Dorian- w h w w w h w
Hypodorian (aeolian)
Phrygian- h w w w h w w
Hypophrygian (locrian)
Lydian- w w w h w w h
Hypolydian (ionian)
Mixolydian- w w h w w h w
Hypomixolydian (dorian)
Aeolian- w h w w h w w
Hypoaeolian (phrygian)

and the later added:
Locrian- h w w h w w w
Hypolocrian (lydian)

The "hypo" modes all start on the V of their root mode (ex. hypodorian starts on A, the V of Dorian), and the V of the "hypo" mode is the tonic of the next mode (ex. the V of hypodorian is E, the root of phrygian, the next mode after dorian). While they seem pointless at first they could find a place in a progression based on the circle of fifths, and since shredders love the modes, why not? I just thought this was interesting I don't really like to solo with the modes too much, but thats probably because a lack of a backing band to define what mode I'm in.

[Edited by superwang5000 on 07-30-2003 at 01:46 PM]

Uhh..Congratulations. You have confused the hell outta me! heh.

it's not really an important thing so don't get worried... basically way back in the day some1 thought it was a good idea to make lots of pointless modes that could maybe be used to play a circle of fifths progression while saying in a few modes.

hehe... Yeah very confusing. "hypo" actually refers to plagal or under. This will help separate the differences between "hypo" modes and authentic modes, the modes that we see and use today. There is an application for these "hypo" modes but it may only be for your own understanding.

Take a simple phyrgian mode: E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E. It's relative major scale would start with C, this we will call a reciting tone. i.e. C major has the same notes as E phrygian. Now to say something is written in a mode (in in a diatonic scale), what has to be true?? The song or melody will have to end of in tonal (modal if you wish) note, which in this phrygian scale is E. This how the mode is looked at today because it is more acceptable and modern sounding.

Now for a hypophrygian mode: B C D E F G A B. Which is a fourth under the phrygian mode above. A perfect forth below E is B, so that's where this scale starts from. This is why this mode is plagal. i.e. if you know your cadances IV-I is called a plagal cadence, same thing. Now what is the fourth note in the hypophrygain, it's E. A perfect fourth above B, so in this scale (like the phrygain) E will be the tonal note. In a melody or whatever E will still be the final note played, making it sound plagal. i.e since this is a B locrian mode, if you were to play this scale over a Bm7b5 chord and you ended the melody on E. You will have a plagal sound, or hypophrygain. Back to the first which is E phyrgian scale so it would work over a E minor chord, but you would end of E.

Another thing is in the hypophrygian mode the reciting tone is A instead of C, which is the relative minor of C major. The thing that contrasts these two modes is the hypophrygain will sound more minor than the phrygain. Ending on the fourth tone of a chord your playing over will have more of a minor sound, “plagal“ in truth.

This almost seems useless, but if any reason you want to write a tune that sounds pre-sixteenth century, this is a good thing to know. Alot of tunes from this time ended on the IV chord instead of the I chord. Hopefully that wasn’t to confusing. I find that if you begin a melody or whatever with the reciting tone then the results are better. i.e. writing a tune in the phrygain mode will often begin with it’s relative major C, but will end on E. Instead of ending with the tonic. Which is what sounds modal. In the case of hypophyrgian, it sounds more apparent if you begin with the relative minor when ending on the phrygian tone of a major scale.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Dude, for me, it never makes sense. I read like the first two paragraphs and I'm so perplexed, then I'm like, wait, there's more.

I understand the basic modes, and scales. But after that, you fry my brain like eggs.

This is so simple... When playing in A, play an F major scale. Place all your blues and country pentatonics within those scales. It will be Phyrgian in one context, or it will be a jazz fusion in another context. Any key, play the b6 major scale. (1/2 step above the 5th)

Not sure how your reply relates to the post on hypo-modes?

If you were to use those modes today it would be better to look at them as a concept rather than another mode. The modes we have today encompass pretty much everything, old modes and new. I'll try to explain it alittle easier, since I did rant alittle in the first post. Basically, to play something in a hypo-phrygain mode, you would play a locrian like you normally would but you would end whatever you played on the fourth note in the locrain mode.

Example: Playing a solo over a Bm7b5 chord, you would start on A and end the part on E. The harmony this would produce would be considered "hypo-phrygian". See it's more of a concept. With modern music you can do whatever, things aint as strict as in the pre-16th century. Hopefully that's alittle easier to understand. If not, don't worry about it. It's nothing big.

Trying to make this quite smiple. All the language makes music quite impossible, or very complicated. Simplicity is the key.
How else can I explain it. Pentatonics, major (POV) and minor scales pretty much covers music. One can't go beyond this logic, unless they've gone through sheer hell, or work. X=X only exists (in terms or 200 yrs of theory)(there are many that have proven different, but within the scope, that have been or become famous, honest logical, and legit). There are only so many possibilities that exist on the guitar. That creation, takes, awesome talent or whatever the word. I've seen it only, once. To see a consumate guitar player, as a guitar player,
is most life threatening, as an honest guitar player, but very kind.
How hard can this be. The logic is simple, the work is awesome and sheer incredibly hard work. Be a lawyer, or a doctor, the money is better, in the long run, a ton of less work, and a ton of money...The honesty isn't much different...

Notice, Please change that name, you are right, but not very quick for a guitar player point of view. (bass player, I really don't want to do the jokes, please help me.) I don't want this to be a running war, but I'm game. I'd like this to be HELPFUL. I don't want to prove you wrong at every turn. Be honest, and help me.

Man Griphon, I hope you don't take this the wrong way but sometimes your posts seem like your talking in a different language or from another planet. I know your a die-hard pentatonic player, but the thread is about modes. :confused: And one sentence your saying I'm right and in the next your saying you don't want to prove me wrong, then your asking for my help. I'm sorry but I can't help but wonder if your ok. You ok?? And what help do you want from me?? I'd be glad to help as I too what to make this helpful.

As for music terms and simplicity, I agree these modes can make things more complicated especially when you think about the theory of today. Remember these "hypo" modes are from the late nineteenth century, and they were dropped in the mid-late sixteenth century. By Music theory’s stand point music will what to end on I or tonic (except jazz/modal compositions). When these modes were apart of theory IV was just as acceptable of an ending as I. This why these modes are referred to as “plagal”. If you wish to theorize from the last 200 years, ignore them. You may want to ignore them all together, like I said they're only for those who want the knowledge.

Again, I'm just speachless. It seems evident, I should get out of here. I like this site. Dishonesty, and frankly, wrong information is not for me. Power corrupts, absolutely.
And I'm a very old fart.

I do not wish to get into one of these heated debates but I don't know what your calling dishonest and wrong information. I would like to know what you disagree with, do you not believe these modes existed? Or, do you disagree with my views on how these modes were used?? Frankly, those modes did exist and if this is what you call dishonest. I would advise you to at least search the information before calling it misinformation. I bet you'll be surprised. My views on the usage of these modes are from mine and others' studies on 12th and 13th century music where these modes were the basis for that music. You can also check out any reference to Alia Musica, where these modes when meantioned.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 08-02-2003 at 09:26 PM]

C'mon guys.
Notice....I understand your definition of hypo-modes, what I'm in question about is Griphons response to play the major scale off of the b6 scale degree. I understand the logic behind it but I don't understand how Griphon is trying to relate this to hypo-modes?

Hypo, in our musical context, means, lower or lower eschelon or beneath, even secondary. In terms of useage, both the mode and hypo mode are the same. The difference between a mode and a hypo mode is resolution. In early times, before me, modes were primarily vocal. Through time and extensive rewrite, the idea is applied to harmony.
Example E phrygian--resolution is E/C. Hypo is E/A. In a modern sense, hypo is not useless, but my view, pretty trivial. One needn't learn or take the time to learn in a traditional sense, only to find out, "Hey, I already know this stuff!" Even notice, said this indirectly, "chords or notes, don't have to resolve a certain way..." Paraphrased, mind you.

I'm still from earth. I wish to be heard, then played, tried out, whatever the new terms. Music theory and music fact, are two different puppies. My application of theory or fact, is much looser with this site, because it's entitled "Guitar Tricks." No malicious intent is intended.
A lot of time and angst could be saved and remedied through simply reading what is written. If one doesn't understand, ask. Saves time and space. Most excellent guitar schools teach chord/scale relationships. Fortunately, it's the way I teach. It's simpler and faster. I've been doing this for a long, long time. I still have my hair and my teeth, though.

I am hardly a pentatonic player. I would venture to say, that most people on this site, roughly 90 percent, are pent oriented or the only thing they know. To teach, you have to have some notion of the psychology of whom you are teaching. To reach them, an attempt must be made to explain topics, in "their" POV. Helping them, helps you. Since we're musicians, listening is paramount. A very good teaching method is called the Socratic method. The method always requires a response, of any sort, from the student. The method has changed from the Greeks, and terms have changed, but the methodology has remained reasonably true, constant and consistent.

I am still having a problem with your view of the tritone.
I don't know how you can disagree, that a chord with a tritone is not dominant or leading tone. A tritone can occupy a I's postion, but it's still a dominant function. I don't get it. Roughly, 400 years of theory AND practice proves it. Without the tritone, in our present system, music will not and could not move.

Actually I came accost something earlier today that explains the hypo-mode better. I may have been mistaken on how to actually use them. I apologized but here’s the correct usage and it’s interesting. Take the hypo-phyrgian mode I wrote in my first post: B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B. At first look this is a B locrian mode, but what if your tune starting with B and ended on E. This was my mistake, instead of starting on A(the reciting tone) start on the root as natural. This produces a whole new cookie. Playing a mode but ending on the mode of a mode. hehe Here’s a simple way to see it. A good question is which two chords are an acceptable first chord of a song?? The root I and the dominant V. Now if you started on E with this scale, you end up with E phrygian. Start it on B or the dominant (V) of E and you end up with E hypophrygian. These two terms were used to describe the difference of a beginning tone, being either I (phyrgian) or V (hypophrygain). The resolution is the same in both cases, E. Again I apology for the misinterpretation hopefully I cleared it up.

If your wondering where the Hypo meaning works into this, E is a the IV chord if you started with B, or you could say B is a perfect forth below E. Either way and both ways make sense. Again sorry for the confusion.

Griphon-

Sorry, from your posts you seem to be since you explain everything in terms of pents. On your teaching, I agree you need input but one thing that you do. Don’t take this the wrong way, but you assume a lot. Like you said you must assume that 90 percent of the people on here know and may only know pents. You may find your response better taught if you take what the question is that’s being asked rather than what you assume. Like you did with this thread, your first post was so off base. -LOL- The first post on this page should have been you first response. You answered in the context of the discussion (which was hypo-modes), in the first one you didn’t mention hypo modes once instead something about playing the 6th of the major scale.

About the tri-tone and without turning this into a mass debate. I agree the tri-tone can exist within a dominant or leading tone chord. But that’s not the only chord. By definition a tri-tone is an augmented 4th or #4, a b5 is usually referred to as a diminished 5th because it exists within diminished triads. So tri-tone is not a completely accurate way to name that interval. What I was trying to tell you is the #4 or tri-tone also exists within the subdominant chord. Not only the leading tone and dominant chord. If you go back to that thread and read where that debate started, that was the first thing I tried to tell you.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 08-05-2003 at 11:52 PM]

Misread what I said.
"in the first one you didn’t mention hypo modes once instead something about playing the 6th of the major scale."
Your quote. If, for example you want to find phrygian for A, the scale is F (the b6). The mode or hypo rule, if you like, then follows. Very simple. Not much to memorize or to learn by rote.

As for tritones, I don't agree with you. Your view, to me, is far too complicated. I, don't think correct. Your resolutions are in the wrong context and direction. I simply don't understand what you know. I also don't want a mass debate. In roughly, 35 years of playing, performing and studying, I've never heard nor read, this view before. Have at it, it makes absolutely no logical or rational sense, to me.

Not being too argumentative. A, only exists 4 times in modern or any music.
Play an A or Am bar chord, and this is what happens.
Play a major scale of C, F or G, (so ironic) and something magical happens. The Am appears in those keys. Real IMPORTANT.! Drastically IMPORTANT! Easy understanding or weirdness begins. Harmony is key!
If you play Bb, a sort of blues exist.
Understanding modes, and how chords function, makes this simplicity happen. This is so incredibly easy. If you are a pent player, modify your scale(s). How simple can this be?
Minor variations are even easier. I am at a lost, as to why this is even debatable. Easy. Guitar Tricks.

[Edited by griphon2 on 08-06-2003 at 09:29 PM]