Modulation


Axl_Rose
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Axl_Rose
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05/19/2003 9:57 am
I that just changing the chords your usnig for a different part of a song while remaing in the same key?
If not- wot is it!!
# 1
noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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05/19/2003 4:22 pm
Modulation is the process of going from one key, like A major, to a different key, E major. The most common modulation is going from a key to it's relative key, like C major to A minor. The notes are the the same so it's very easy to change. The other used is modulating using a relative chord that exists within the key you started with and the key your wanting to go to. Take the A major to E major example. Since the rule is when you write something in a key you end it on the root. Apply that rule with the part your playing in A major, so your chord progression ends on an A major chord. Well there is an A major chord in E major, so you can easily use that chord as a pivot from A major to E major. This technique is commonly called parallel *sumthing*, but it is a process of modulation. With more study in this field you will see that it is possible to move from any key to another.
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# 2
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06/21/2003 3:09 am
I'm sorry i didn't read the above post, but how i'm going to explain it is.....find the relative chord!

For example, "Bell Bottom Blues" by eric clapton

verse is Key of C

last line in the verse ends with F G

two verses, then into the Chorus, which is modulated to key of A. How do you get to A?

Look at the last chords played, its a C Major Walk up, into a Major 6th chord, A.

IV V VIMaj
F G A

For the chorus, the A becomes the I chord, etc.

Get Hal Leonard's "Harmony and Theory", its excellent.
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RobSm
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06/22/2003 12:06 am
Here's another method to play with. If you think of any note say 'G' then it appears in 7 major scales as a different degree or position in each. For example G is the first note of Gmaj, the second note of Fmaj, ther third note of Eflatmaj, the 4th note of dmaj the 5th note of cmaj,the sixth note of bFlat maj, and the seventh note of Aflat maj.

The same principle applies to every other note.

So play along in Gmaj and when you come to the end of a phrase where the melody note is G (say) instead of using a chord from the G set of chords (eg G C Em) use a chord from one those other keys in which G is a scale note (or tension note) like Eflat, (key could be Bflat, Aflat or Eflat) and go off in that other key for a while, then do the same trick to return to G.

This can be done on any note not just the key note.

You could use other chords of course, particularly the minors eg end above on Cmin then you're in any key that has Cmin as a II III or VI.

Bell Bottom Blues works it in the opposite direction by seemingly going to F to G to Am (which is a common progression) but makes the Am and Amaj instead opening up the 'new' key of Amaj.

This is used very often. As always....we just have to practice.
Robbo
# 4
noticingthemistake
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noticingthemistake
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06/22/2003 3:16 pm
The process of modulation is done by using a pivot chord, a chord that exists in both the original key and the key your going to. As for G existing in 7 different keys, this is true but as a chord, say G maj it's only in 3 keys. You'll have to take in count the chord structure. Now when you add an extension like a 7th, G maj7 occurs only twice, and G dominant 7 (G7) only occurs once. Seems hopeless cause there are two things that will help alot. One is a chord progression common in all music, it's the two-five (ii-V7) which occurs naturally in the major key. Then there's the other two-five which are both dominant (II7-V7). This is what makes most modulations possible, including the cycle 5 chord progressions. Here's the dominant one (III7 - VI7 - II7 - V7), each time you play a dominant technically your in a different key. The other way is with line cliches, which is having a chord progression like Gmaj7 to G7. A oline cliches is when the root chord (Gmaj) stays the same but the extension moves (maj7 to dominant 7). As you can see this will make a connect where most modulations can't occur naturally. I'll take the explain from clapton and change it alittle to show what I mean.

Fmaj7 - G7 - Gmaj7 - A7

Starts off in the key a C major with Fmaj7 and G7, now using a line cliches of G7 to Gmaj7. Now I play a A dominant 7 and I am in the key of D major. Gmaj7 was the pivot chord.

There are many techniques to make modulation possible. Those 2 will pretty much answer most. Some just have to change without a pivot chord.
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06/26/2003 1:32 am
pivot chord = relative chord

Same thing, different term.
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John O'Carroll
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06/26/2003 1:43 pm
Many songs for many years simply modulate the entire tune up a half step, or occasionally a full step. This was popular in the 50's and 60's. e.g. G Em C D was modulated to Ab Fm Db Eb. It usually was done on a 3rd verse and continued through the end of the song.
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chris mood
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06/26/2003 2:55 pm
Sounds dated and cheesey.
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noticingthemistake
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06/26/2003 5:05 pm
Yeah. It's less common now days for modulation to move up a half-step. It sounds better going down a half-step rather than up. Half-steps are minor in quality and descending is more minor than ascending. Try this one. Fmaj7 - Fm7 - B7 - Fm7 - Emaj7.

Most modulation occurs in 5th's. Also 4th's and 3rd's are very common. The sixth is a good option, 2nd's and 7th's are the least common.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 06-26-2003 at 12:08 PM]
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chris mood
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06/26/2003 7:26 pm
I've always been a sucker for a major to minor pivot either off the 4 or 1 chord.Ex:
C-7 F9|Bbmaj7 |Bb-7 Eb9|Abmaj7||
# 10
griphon2
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07/04/2003 10:13 pm
Intervals, keys, chords move in various ways. These are the traditional movement(s), by: 4ths or 5ths, maj or min 3rds, whole or half step up or down (tritone), or chromatically, repectively. This can be accomplished through abrupt or through dominant 7th (or it's variation, mostly by 4th or 5th, or voice leading control, regardless of established harmony).
Most always some portion(s) of the cycle of 4ths and 5ths occur. From Renaissance, Classical, Swing, Bebop, Rock, etc, this formula or idea exists. There are only two chords, in our present system, I and V7. most all tunes, songs, compositions, whatever term, can be boiled down to this constant.

A lie goes around the world before the truth gets it's shoes on. (Mark Twain)
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chris mood
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07/04/2003 11:46 pm
I would have to disagree with your Dominant -Tonic theory, I believe the 4 chord (sub-dominant) should be considered as its own entity....I see it as a weak argument to consider the 4 chord an extension or sub of the tonic chord.
# 12
griphon2
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07/05/2003 1:29 am
Interesting. The IV or sub-dominant, is probably the most difficult chord to improv on hearing. There are three ways to look at this. I ignore this one, look at it as a functional sub-dominant within a key. To me, within the terms of sound it's useless, sort of. More than likely or mostly, IV chords fall into the ii V realm or the I realm, regardless of musical genre.
The 2nd and 3rd view. I look at the sub-dominant, slightly askew. It all depends on it's actual function. To me, it's rarely, sub-dominant. What a word. It's either I or a function of V7. (a function of V7, what's worse?) Spelling, I get around the ambiguity, through, bass? Defines a lot of stuff. I can do what I want. To be equally ambiguous as the harmony lends or tends me. Ever so shortly.

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07/05/2003 1:55 am
I to IV are so if'fy. Cmaj7 to Fmaj7 progression. (America type tunes) Don't know what to do until the next chord. C and F, the same problem. IV chords are the suspensions of the major key setup. Play an F with G in the bass (F/G), we have the ultimate suspension. Aurally, we make an assumption. This can go anywhere. IV chords are ambiguous. Why the early hatred of tritones?
A lie goes around the world before the truth gets it's shoes on. (Mark Twain)
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noticingthemistake
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07/05/2003 4:40 pm
The word “sub”(dominant) means below. In the key of C major, the fifth degree above the tonic is G, or G dominant. A fifth below C is F, or F sub-dominant. Chris is right, each one of these chords is completely different especially functionally. Take the circle of fifths, where I think the functionality is more acceptable. A dominant chords makes the progression sound ascending in the circle of fifths, and the subdominant sound descending. With or without theory terms, just aurally. If you were to modulate, the G dominant helps move up in circle of fifths, while F subdominants helps moves down in the circle of fifths. With a little help of other chords that would have to exist within either progression, although the F subdominant is a direct modulation to the key of F major. Not to be taking strictly, because there are many ways to work around it and manipulate. But this is a basic understanding of the dominant and subdominant function and meaning.

I-IV are iffy, try vi - IV. I-IV is a suspension because it wants to move back to I or even up to V. vi-IV is the foremost progression to get to a key a fifth below where you are now. Like the F subdominant directly to F major.

The Tritone is so hated because 1 its so hard to sing and 2 it is discord compared to all the other intervals. Funny thing is through all that time it was still used, but disguised. The common porogression F, A, B, C (typical Gregorian chant) or chord progression below.


e:----------3---
b:--5---7---5---
g:--4---7---5---
d:--6---7-------
a:--7---5---3---
e:--------------


This is an extremely common progression (in that period)that is clearly tritonic but is disguised. In moving from the first to the second sonority, the M3-5 progression of the lowest voices involves the tritonic relation of g#-d; in moving from the second to the third sonority, the M10-12 progression of the outer voices involves a similar relation of f#'-c. .

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-05-2003 at 11:43 AM]
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chris mood
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07/05/2003 5:17 pm
In popular music is very common to outline the 4 chord during a "bridge" section. Technically you are not modulating because you are still within the diatonic key, and at this point the 4 chord is clearly not functioning as an extension of the 1 or 5. To dismiss it seems frivolous, you would be denying everything the Blues stands for.

As for a 1 to 4 progression I can name at least 2 dozen songs off the top of my head that utilize this function (Feeling Allright, Can't Always Get What You Want, etc..). I think the 4 chord definitely has its own unique aural character, In fact I think its one of the easiest and most distinguishable chords to hear within the diatonic system. Why you would want to invent some theory that disguises the relevance of the sub-dominate is beyond my comprehension.

*this sounds like a very interesting debate, unfortunately I have to run a music camp for the next 2 wks and will probably not be able to contribute....have fun guys.
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griphon2
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07/05/2003 9:31 pm
Actually, you are both right. I actually look at IV chord, when I hear them or read them, as an exact function. If they are colored in some way, I just handle them different or sub them out.
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# 17
noticingthemistake
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07/05/2003 11:00 pm
Originally posted by chris mood
[B]In popular music is very common to outline the 4 chord during a "bridge" section. Technically you are not modulating because you are still within the diatonic key,


Whether it modulates is depending on the song, so it could be either yes or no. On written music this modulation is not noted because key signature of a song is indicated by the last chord not each modulation that occurs. Music would be a mess, because some music can move through many and I mean many key signatures. Modulation causes contrast in music which is a must in a good masterful composition. Music, like a painting is not one color but many colors.

and at this point the 4 chord is clearly not functioning as an extension of the 1 or 5. To dismiss it seems frivolous, you would be denying everything the Blues stands for.


No chord within a chordal structure of a key is an extension of another chord. Not even the I chord and the others which revolve around that chord. Griphon does hold water when saying the IV chord can be functional as a suspension. Especially in a C.P. such as I - IV - V7 and the minor version i - iv6 - i(6th extension on iv chord is optional). Although limiting to that function is a musical opinion probably based on musical experience, because the IV can play as many roles as any other chord. Just like many other chords can serve as a suspension, bVII, iio, bII, viio, V7, and Io. Some work for some musical styles while others don’t.

As for a 1 to 4 progression I can name at least 2 dozen songs off the top of my head that utilize this function (Feeling Allright, Can't Always Get What You Want, etc..). I think the 4 chord definitely has its own unique aural character, In fact I think its one of the easiest and most distinguishable chords to hear within the diatonic system. Why you would want to invent some theory that disguises the relevance of the sub-dominate is beyond my comprehension.


The I-IV progression could stand alone as just a I chord continued, but the IV chord keeps the progression moving. The next chord after the IV chord could actually be anything and will relatively have the same effect if it was moving from the I chord. I think you would understand this griphon, because this is your primary use of the IV chord. Try this chord progression so you can hear the contrast in modulation that occurs from using the IV chord.


CM:I V ii IV
FM: I vi ii V I
e:-0----1----0----0----0----1----0----0--|
b:-0----0----1---------1-----------------|
g:------0---------2---------3----3----2--|
d:-----------0----3----0-----------------|
a:-3-----------------------------3-------|
e:--------------------------3---------1--|


This progression goes from C major to F major.

have fun chris.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 18
chris mood
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07/06/2003 2:42 am
No chord within a chordal structure is an extension of another........sure it is when you start dealing with higher sinorities. Take Cmaj9, within this chord you have a C triad, an E minor triad, and a G triad. As Griphon noted before (I think) a 4,5,1 prog can be thought of as a ii-7 (minus the root)5, 1. Piano players think like this all the time, a G triad in the left hand with a F triad in the right hand would produce a G11 chord.
# 19
noticingthemistake
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07/06/2003 3:20 am
:D Ahh. Chris man, you know that's not what I meant and you know what I mean.. LOL ;) I wasn't talking about chords with extensions. I'm talking about the chordal structure of a key signature, the foundation that makes up the sub-dominant, mediants and stuff like that. And no chord in that foundation is an extension of another chord. Start adding extenions and yes what your saying is true.

ALthough I understand it, I am not all that favorable with the whole chord within a chord idea. A Cmaj9 sounds like a Cmaj9 chord, regardless of the chord(s) inside. Chord Substitution is the same way, the chord still sounds like the chord it is rather than the chord it is substituting. A C13 chord can carry inside it, any chord that exists within a C major scale. But it doesn't sound like any chord other than the C13 chord. A study for the intelligent theorist but not for the aural musician. Maybe a shortcut for the pianist though.

Man theory is a bust, for every point made there is an equal counterpoint.
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