Oh OK teach me a wee bit!!

Dont mention the M - word but what note in the scale would give a good rock sounding bed to a solo!! Say Im playing in G Major! Instead of strumming G behind the solo, what would be a good note instead? Im talking modes! but i dont wana know the name! Just say "oh yeah the 5th note in the scale gives it a rocky feel" or something! So what ever key im in I can then use the exact chord that gives it a modal texture or whatever!
Cheers!

If your rocking out a solo over a chord, a good solid place to start is with one of the notes that exists in that chord. Take the G major as you stated. The G Major chord is made up of the notes G, B, and D. So starting it off with any of those notes would give you a solid starting point. That's not always what you want though. A good way to approach this since your looking for a rock solo. Take the most commonly used scale for rock music, the (major)pentatonic scale. In G major it's made up of G, A, B, D, and E. As you can see G, B, and D are already meantioned. So try playing an E over the G major and see if you like that. Usually if you start with a major 6th above a major chord (E is a major 6 above G), the solo will generally lean towards a minor sounding solo. Basically because E is a minor chord in the G major scale, and actually its relative minor. The other note "A" will produce alittle more tension. If that's what you want that's the note for you, but it's not commonly used as a starting point but rather a pivot point to the next chord. The only thing I can tell you is try all the notes over the G major until you find the right one. Remember it's should always sound good first and only you know what you want.

Also try playing C# over the G major chord. This is whats known as the lydian note (#4). I think you'll like the sound. Hope that helps.

Youre saying play C# over G but the bed of a solo is always changing. It might go G D C, so do i play C# over all the chords?

Are you wanted to know what chord(s) that you can play along with a solo in the key of G major?? If this is what you mean, you can use any of the chords that are in the key of G major. (i.e. G major, A minor, B minor, and so on.) I may have misinterpeted what you meant. If your soloing in any scale, you can use any of the chords that are that scale. It's called harmonic generalization, when you use one scale over a group of chords.

It works the other way around too, you can play any note (even just one note) in the G major scale over a chord progression in the key of G major. As for which one is "the rock tone you're looking for", you would have to be the judge of that. Just try all the tones til you find the one your looking for. I couldn't give you a straight answer cause both the chord progression and the note you use would be a factor in it's harmonic sound.

Modes on the other hand tend to work (or understood) better when matched with the chord you are using it to harmonize over. It's more complicated to think of them as general harmonization because if you play a C Lydian scale over a G major chord progression. Your really only playing the G major scale over the G major chord progression. Alot of people wonder what the use of modes are because of this. If you would play the G lydian mode over the G major chord progression, you would end up with alot of clashing of notes. Take the chord progression you wrote G, D, C. G lydian carries the note C# so everytime you played a C# over either C or D, it would sound wrong.

Now if you use the G lydian scale over the G major chord, you would end up with a major scale with a raised 4th. That's the tonality of the lydian mode. All the other notes in the mode would sound like a major scale, except that 4th which is very colorful. The regular 4th is rather dull sounding (I think), and it clashes with the 3rd in a major chord.

There's two ways to look at it. First is general harmonization which is using the root scale over a chord progression in the same root key(using the G major scale over a G major chord progression). Then there's chord harmonization where to use different scales or modes over each chord depending on the harmonic quality you want (i.e. using the G lydian mode over the G major chord).

I know I kinda dragged on but that should answer what I think your trying to ask, and probably any questions after.

Just play a Gmaj or Gmin pentatonic or both together over the entire progression. Two sounds rein separately or together, depending on your view.

Only play a G minor pentatonic over and entire G minor chord progression?? Although it would work, wouldn't you get tired of only using a single 5 note scale over an entire chord progression?? If it's your thing thats cool, but honestly I find it very and alittle too limiting to the range of harmonies you can play (some chords may have to be broken down to only 3 or 4 harmonic intervals). And you would often find what you would put to it to be very weak and boring.

Layering the pents is cool to form a sort a jointed scale of pents. I tend to layer the two blues scales together, which forms the same scale but with an added (b5). A Nice addition.

For single chord harmonization: The (b5) works as a lydian tone over a major chord and the blues note over a minor chord. The (b3) works natural with a minor chord, and gives a bluesy type sound over a major chord. You often have to exclude the natural 3rd when playing over a minor chord, due to it's unsettling clash with the minor chord's 3rd. Since the scale is made up of both (b3, and b5), it also works relatively good over a diminished chord. Although the 6th in the scale is the same as the diminshed 7th's (bb7), it's context in the scale may cause incompatibility. Most likely another scale would work alot better.

As for harmonic generalization: It is not as compatiable because many tones will be excluded because of clashing of intervals of a given chord progression. You are often only left with 3-4 good notes per chord, which to me is unacceptable. I'm picky I know. :p

Also, I'd like to correct something I wrote in the previous post about the harmonic generalization of modes. Modes can be used as a generalized scale over a chord progression if that chord progression is in that mode. You should look for it to be either major or minor first. Mostly likely that is going to be the correct way to look at it.

Fusing maj and min pents give you maj scales and modes quickly, plus one or two notes and phrasing. Always Maj or min 3rd and b5. Lean to whatever is your preference or what is needed (style of American music). There is very little theory involved in this concept. In most circumstances, harmony or chords move in a consistant manner. Fused pents give you, most of the time, the maj, hm, mm, scales, just altering one more note, not limiting at all. Not a catch all, but an excellent place to start. Excellent phrasing need not be any longer than 4 or 5 of the right notes.

Yeah man, it's a great formula. I don't see how this scale uses less theory than any other scale though, I think you use just the same. Knowing that I have to remove or even alter notes within this scale is using more theory than just taking a simple major scale or pent and play it over a major chord or major chord progression. That's an excellent place to start, because it is a catch all. However using this scale as a generalized harmony scale is less productive than most scales. As for being a single chord harmonizing scale, it is d@mn brilliant. Both the fused pents and the fused blues scales.

American music is based upon inventiveness, not classical theory. Primarily blues with very less sophisticated guitarist, compared to today. That's why everyone else in the world brings American music back to America. As Americans we ignore the obvious. A fusion of Classical and American music thought occured slowly around the 1920's. It wasn't clearly defined until the mid '40's. The actual theory came even later. We're barely 50-60 years removed from the thought.

There is no way in purgatory that any reasonable, and being paid musician can function without some form of musical theory. Even though, one can turn on the radio or TV and hear quite the contrary. That's fuel and food for thought.

Fuse just the major and minor pents, and you have Dorian plus 1. Plus modal variations using the same logic, which ultimately wind up to be major or minor scales, from a back door point of view. Chord progressions are just that, chord progressions. They haven't really changed that much in hundreds of years.

I looked at the fusion of the minor and major pents as being a mixolydian scale with an added b3. Regardless there are many ways to look at it. Throwing out all theory and just looking at music as it's simple definition, "organized sound". You'll probably agree that once this is done a lot of what music theory is complex about suddenly makes sense in a simple manner. Take scales, I'm going to use the major scale. It's called the major scale because it's an organized range of notes that produces a major sound. Pents, modes, and any other scales work in the same way. Often you just have to look at the name it's given to understand what kind of sound your going to get from using it, example blues scales.

When I hear the fusion pent scale in my head, it reminds me of a Dominant yet bluesy sound. Hence Mixolydian with a b3. Fuse the Blues Scales together and it's the same sound although a little more bluesy because of the added b5.

Scales and Chords are related in sound. Take the Mixolydian scale and the dominant 7 chord. Play a E dominant 7 chord, then play the E mixolydian scale. They reflect the same sound or at least it's quality, because they are a perfect match. Play a E major 7 chord and then the E mixolydian scale and they are similar but not matched. This is mainly why a mixolydian mode works differently and sometimes not very good over a E major chord progression. Although that was a simple explanation, the same goes with the fused pent scale. It works fairly because certain notes sound off during certain chords (especially minor) and it changes as the (major or minor) chord progression moves. You then end up with less notes which are already apparent in regular major or minor scales. So it acts just like a mode does over a C.P out of key.

I see how your saying it's a good way to find those other scales. Scales are beneficial because they open the musician up to new organized sounds and the understanding of how to incorporate those into music. Like you learn how to play bluesy music by learning the blues scales. The thing is, I’m not seeing any use for the fusion scale in context of harmonic generalization. Do you use it for this?? If so how?? I would like to understand.

Music theory itself didn't exist until someone decided to make sense out of something someone else played. This is why I think Classical theory and Jazz theory can't explain each other. They are different forms of music and the way they are produced is different in so many ways. I also think there are many other theories out there that haven't even evolved yet cause no one is yet to produce that form of music. So yeah you can be a musician without knowing much about the theory behind it cause you just play what sounds right. I believe music evolves mostly because of this. Although previous music theory must be understood first to evolve to the next step. And music theory and above all the understanding of sound makes a player that much better.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 04-24-2003 at 07:43 PM]

Cool. Makes sense to me to a point. It is important for all guitar players to know Maj and minor pents, maj, hm, mm and symmetrical scales. Pretty much all one needs to know in terms of scales to get PAID. Understanding harmony in terms of theory is equally important to getting reasonalbly PAID.

To imagine for a moment, to make-it, is setting oneself for heartbroke and depression. Music is a cutthroat business. It is the only art form in our society that allows outright stealing and outright plagarism, legally. If you can't read or write or count to at least, seven, you're in deep trouble in just playing. Let's not count, being a lawyer, an accountant, a tax accountant, production engineer, recording engineer, and all the other asundry professions one musician has to know and understand, just to simply stay afloat. After all of that, forget musicianship. Doing it for love, is a pile of crap.

If you want to be a guitar player, educate yourself in a profession where you can beat theivery and dishonesty. Every major star has an entourage and business folk, HE or SHE has to pay for. No other profession, but musicians have this problem. If you don't believe this, just watch a commercial on normal TV. Thirty year old songs are being used, because it's cheaper than hiring a musician to write something original. Another working musician becomes unemployed.
Work as hard as you like in music, but as my father said, find a REAL job. No one will buy the esoteric crap. Lemmings.

What is your definition of Harmonic Generalization? When you use that term it has me a little confused for it seems I use it in a different context then you.

In Jazz harmonic generalization means to outline chords in the melody/solo that are not present in the given harmony of the moment.
So for example, if the chord in lets say measure 7 is a Cmaj7 I may use harmonic Generalization to outline the Amin7 chord by using approach tones to emphasize the chord tones of A-7, so for instance I may play a line like this:
G#ACEGGbFD#EA (boy,I wish it was possible to print music on this forum.)

Yeah, I'm using it in terms of scales. Harmonic generalization is the name given for playing a phrase (melody or harmony) in one scale over the entire chord progression. Like you would play a G major scale, over an entire chord progression like G major, D dominant, E minor, and C major. Mostly done in phrases, not so much in melodies and harmonies. Here's a tabbed example (c&p into notebook if needed.)

4/4
C.P Gmaj..............D7....Em....Cmaj
e:-------------------|-----|-----|-----|
B:-------------------|-----|-----|-----|
G:-------------------|-----|-----|-----|
D:---------5-----2---|--%--|--%--|--%--|
A:---2-5-3-----0---0-|-----|-----|-----|
E:-------------------|-----|-----|-----|
Beat 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &

Same word, just different meanings. The other one I explained is chord harmonization when you harmonize a chord with a different scale. Keeping it simple and using the same part, I'll play the first part of the C chord in C lydian (G major) and then end with C major*.

4/4
C.P Gmaj..............D7....Em....Cmaj
e:-------------------|-----|-----|------------------|
B:-------------------|-----|-----|------------------|
G:-------------------|-----|-----|------------------|
D:---------5-----2---|--%--|--%--|---2-5-4---*2-3-5-|
A:---2-5-3-----0---0-|-----|-----|-3----------------|
E:-------------------|-----|-----|------------------|
Beat 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &

G#ACEG(B)Gb(Bb)FD#EA. Swing it a little, it's a good lick for Cma7, for me a pent idea. Variations of Em7 Am7, keeping in mind Cmaj7, works well too. Wish we could notate in normal notation, also.

Yeah I kind of think of that lick as outlining the -7th chord that exists inside of the root position minor pentatonic. Jimmy Bruno showed me that riff, demonstrating how to connect chord tones w/chromatics.
What did you mean by putting the notes in the parenthesis?

To me it's a blues lick in C starting on a leading tone. If you combined both the minor blues scale and the major one with the root C, you'll have all the tones except G# which is the leading tone for A, then C blues. I see what you guy's are saying though. Aint trying to disagree ;), just stating how I see it.

Just showing two added notes to the lick. Can be added or not. Also to show the ambiguity of the Maj 7 and #11, the last A could have resolved to F# below the A in the 8th measure. Pre-supposing...