Stuck in the "BOX" need some help

I'll try to easily explain the evolution of my system's logic.
Start with a G bar chord (3rd fret) Overlay or envision a
G maj pentatonic and a G min pentatonic, together. (guitar fretboard view) You'll note that what arises is a modified G dorian mode with a #4 or #11, depending on your view. If one plays a F maj scale or a major scale from the 7th of G or any chord (or whole step below root), the same result occurs. Raising the 5th of any major scale gives you a backdoor harmonic minor. (dorian #11) Lowering the 3rd of any major scale gives you a backdoor melodic minor. If you ignore the rule of melodic minor, it's really a jazz melodic minor. (dorian b9)

I believe it's monumentally difficult to memorized modal scales by rote. Knowing only major scales (pentatonic scales help in terms of visualizing on guitar),knowing the two ways to alter a major scale shortens the learning time, incredibly. Most jazz players go after tensions, rather than modes. If you are after a modal sound for modal sound sake, one must follow a previous post. My system gives you an infinite amount improvisational possiblities very quickly.

If you are a pentatonic player, fuse the major and minor
pentatonic together. Even adding the blue note (b5). Learn them cold. They are modified major scales with the view of the above paragraph. Next learn major scales and then, within the system I propose. Learn them cold. Then learn the two ways to alter. This helps to go or get away from verifying root. This system will go after what makes the particular chord or tonal center you are playing over tick.
Hope this helps.

Ahhh...ok now I see what you were saying. That was a much better explanation for me. Thanx. I never looked at how they were that closely related. My way was just to start with a clean sheet when learning each scale, relating to me caused too much confusion. I never wanted to have to think of another scale to learn a new scale, even the relative minor and majors. I guess with a smooth transaction between scales, that works out nicely though. :)

Did you come up with that or did you learn it somewhere?

Another way to look at this. Knowing what intervals look like on the guitar, will double the speed of learning these mechanics. (I don't know how to use the computer fretboards)
3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, etc., have the same look, regardless of where you are on the fretboard, e.g., the tritone has a look, 7ths, 6ths, etc. Fretted instruments of any form have this look. All other instruments must be learned by rote, to one degree or the other.

Play G bar chord.
Play the major scale a maj 3 below or m6 above the root of G or 1/2 step above the 5th.
That "is" your Phrygian mode. Or another way to say it, this is the scale that gives you G Phyrgian. Altering that scale, gives you the other variations. You can play an Eb scale or play an Eb scale from G. The sound is Spanish.

A F scale is the dorian scale. If you like, play a F scale from G.

A C scale is mixo for G. A 4th above G.

A D scale is lydian for G. A 5th above G or another way, it is the 5th of G. Play from G or from any note of the chord.
You could play a Bm7 arp using the notes of D maj scale in passing and it would still sound lydian. If you want to play lydian for G, play a D melodic minor or a D major with a flat 3rd from any note, you have your lydian b7#11 sound.(G7 altered)

So on and so forth...

Hope this helps a bit more.

Yeah. I got where you were coming from when you explained how you put to pentatonics together, and you get an altered scale. Alittle advanced I'd say, but it is a nice to see how it works out that way. I understand how every scale has modes, and coincidentally certain modes have modes of there own that make up another scales. It's all a matter of how many ways you can either alter and look at a simple major scale. Simply, and combination of 5-12 notes makes a scale. Anything less than 5 is consider a broken chord. Like the E pentatonic major, take out the 2nd degree and you have a broken Emaj6 chord. I have my great grandfathers manuscript from where he studied at the warsaw conservatory (academy where frederick chopin attended), and it's got endless amounts of music theory information. Although I wouldn't say there's much on pentatonics and how they come together like you said. There is quite a bit of information that I don't even see in other theory books. Just not much guitar related stuff, mostly classical theory and some contemporary ideas. That's why I come here. :)

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 01-13-2003 at 03:42 PM]

The idea, method or system came about through teaching. When students got interested, I kept getting questions on how to get into Berklee or GIT. Also at the time, I couldn't read very well, or at all. I had to come up with something to pass the college courses, especially sight singing. Analyzing Renaissance, Bach, to Stockhausen makes one find a way and not to look too horribly dumb or stupid. And the luck of working with a truly kind and gifted group of people. Everyone has a view. Honest people have valid views. I had to find a way to understand, very fast. The trick and tricks came about just helping folks to get into school. Getting in is hard. Getting through can sometimes be more difficult. This gave most an edge. Just through the years, I've refined the method.
Pentatonics are amazing little tools, not just ours. To one degree or another, they are the vocal equivalents to any culture.

Actually, an E maj 6/9 or a C#m11, depending on your view.
Arpeggio. Or an Em11 or G maj 6/9, depending on your view.
If you want a country sound or southern rock, the first works. If you want blues or most rock, the second works.
Overlayed or superimposed together, pretty much covers everything else in American music.

Check out Pedereski (sp), can literally write a train wreck using traditional instruments.

Yeah its true that certain chords work better with certain music. Remember what you said before though, theory can get you in a trap. I think it's more important to look at what part those chords will play in your music, not just their sound. The 11th chord is most often an established Suspension chord, harmonically. When a sus4 is taken in a more melodical sense. A 11th chord is a suspension that will pull you in one direction, and the sus4 will want to pull you in another direction. Depending on where the music wants to go, what note it is replacing, and it's inversion.

The 6/9 works in a different way. They are harmonic chords because of the 6th degree, and sound sort of like 7th chords but that sound is replaced by the 9th. The seventh and 9th chords have the same dissonance tone in them, except one (7th) plays before the root, the other (9th)after. Always a M2 or m2 apart.

I would still keep the thought that those chords work will those types of music, which is correct. But don't excluded them based on that idea.

That's the joy of todays music. Regardless, of what you do, it's right if you end properly. Bach proved that. Bach would love this world without his constrictions.

Yeah. It would be interesting to see what kind of music guys like Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and other classical legends would come up with these days. I think they would have a hard time if weren't brought up in this time. They would still produce the same music, unless they heard stuff like rock, blues, funk, and metal. It would be a wild trip to see what that would do to alter their legendary perspective.

It's also another wild trip to think of what music would sound like without those guys. I always think about that. Sometimes it gets me think in the direction of creating my own style of music. If you were to envision what music would be like without the church establishment. Weird.

I think it was Bach, but they also say the first step is just as important. "Without the first note, there can not be any composition. Without the last note, the composistion can not be complete." ;)

Here it is, very simple.
If you're in E,... E, A, B or all 7th'd, play all your blues licks. Which is, an E min pentatonic or a G maj pentatonic. It all depends on your point of view or maybe how or what you have learned first. (ironically modal)Playing either point of view will work, and SAFELY. Most all American music oriented guitar players START this way. The interest, mostly, is what is heard. Normally and upon reflection, E A B, depending on what you have heard thru life, you will play, pentatonically, an Eminor or G pentatonic, or Emaj/C#m pentatonic, depending on orientation. Beginning and intermediate guitar players,
mostly, play this way. They'll will do extensions, because their favourite guitar players do the same. The key is understanding the sound. Playing and/or learning positionally will make clear all pentatonic knowledge and logic.

If you are not a pentatonic player already, this will be hard to consume. Major and minor scales are simply modified pentatonics. Control is based on pents and musically determined by pents, especially in terms of more advanced music. They are, overall, very basic arpeggios. Knowing pents, saves a lot of work. They're the key to all American music's logic.
I hope this helps,

From Van Halen, Dimeola, to Steve Morse and more great players, use this logic, directly or indirectly. If one buys anyones method, you will get, in a nutshell, the first email. This is what the great players play, more or less,
depending the player. Not one of the great players will deny it. The names change to protect the era to be ignored.

I do my best to keep politics, religion, philosophy and all other phies or gies, out of my point of view. No matter what you think, say or do, the only point of view is yours or mine.(very Bolean, on or off, very philosphical) Life works a little easier from that preset. (an amp view)
One trys to make most to understand. It's not easy. Either way you are right or wrong, depending on point of view. One runs with it, regardless. One can't do ANYTHING without making a mistake. If you do nothing, you make no error. (or in itself is an error, but who knows or controls.)
The people that make no error, do nothing wrong. A point of view. It's all a point of view.
If anyone thinks, of all arts, music can't be controlled. Life, art or what we think tangible will always be an intangible, like no other art, but maybe language. So much irony.

Hey man. Since there is more of a chance of your logic on this matter getting lost because it's on the forum. You should either put it on the tricks page, or make your own page so more people will see it. That way you can plan a layout of step by step explaination alittle better. It's so scrambled on this thread that it is hard to comprehend. Put some sound files so they can listen to what your getting at.

(soloing) When playing pentatonics over a chord progression, I find better results when you play a E major pent over an E major chord, and an B major pent over a B major chord. You know what I'm getting at. It gives it a sense that the music is moving not staying in one place. Plus, sometimes tension can arise between notes. So this becomes an easy fix. Use extensions to move from one scale to the next.

Now when playing a little lick in a pentatonic. Better results are achieved when staying in the Tonic's pentatonic over a chord progression.

The situation will dictate what to do. Use your inner ear.

As you said, the 6/9 chord is the broken major pentatonic. The m11 chord is the minor pentatonic. Reverse your process and see what you can come up with. ;)

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 01-13-2003 at 10:52 PM]

hmm I thought I kinda knew what modes were supposed to be about but both of you kinda confused me in this thread. I always thought the best way to learn new modes was to take a major(ionian) scale for example the G ionian scale and then the A dorian. This way if you learned this everywhere on the neck and in all the other modes you would know all the notes in that key. If like you said (noticingthemistake) you learned the G ionian then G dorian,G mixo etc etc etc... if you used this in a song wouldn't you be playing out of key?? I'm kind of a beginner but I'd think the best way to get out of a box is to learn to "continue" that pattern on another place on the neck then you'd learn all the notes that are in the key on the fretoboard and would have no limits really. Am I totally off track here or what?

Sorry man. Didn't mean to throw you off. You got the right idea on how to learn modes. For most people making the transition from the major scale to learning the modes, your way is the simpliest. The only hold back I think it has is, by knowing the major scale already. You pretty much got the sound of a G major scale in your head. By going right to the A dorian, it's harder to grasp the uniqueness of the mode itself. It's the same notes, G major and A dorian. So although you may learn where they are on the fretboard, the sound is confused. Your ear still says the A dorian sounds like the G major.

The way I proposed builds both ear training of each mode, and how to play their pattern on the guitar. Without having to resort to the G major first. Which doubles the work. My explanation is not how to use them in a song, but how to learn them seperately. Going from C Ionian to C dorian to C mixolydian etc. etc. gradually builds on the uniqueness of each mode itself by altered one note at a time. Then listening closely to the altered note. Read that post again, I think you'll see what I was saying. This was how Bach was taught modes. In the end you are learning the pattern and the sound of each mode. Knowing the sound is the most important element to be a musician. A musician is a master of sound, not a master of patterns.

Hope this helps man.

Also, A Ionian (major) mode and a Dorian mode serve different purposes in music itself. SO it is best not to have those two confused in any way. They are 2 completely different scales. When playing a song in G major, then play the mode A dorian over it is still playing the G major scale. The dorian's mode most common purpose is jazz music, when you use alot of minor chords. It's harmonizes well over any minor chords, like m7, m11, and m13th's. The G major scale is for, well, major chords based in G.

Also, when learning modes the way I propose. Keep the root the same note going through all the modes. So if you start on C, play all the modes in C. You are learning that modes pattern and sound uniquely. NOT how it relates with the other scales.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 01-13-2003 at 11:21 PM]

I see what you're getting at. So I guess your way makes you see the differences in sound while mine focuses more on how they fit together on the fretboard.

thanks. I still don't see what griphon was talking about. Maybe it's more for experts lol

thanks :D

It's a time saver. Just looking at the guitar, one can determine what scale is needed.
To find a dorian play the ii chord of any key. From that chord gives you the actual dorian scale. The irony of modern music and today music, one can play a minor scale over a major chord or key. Apply this logic:
Dorian = a major scale one whole step below.
If your dorian root or note is G, your major scale or parent scale is F. A dorian would be G, Ab would be Gb, C would be Bb, and so forth. This logic eliminates the paper work or the constant construction or deconstruction of the rule of dorian. One has to do this 7 times for every major scale, 7 times for every harmonic minor scale, 7 times for every melodic minor scale. (21 X 12) This system helps to find the PARENT scale without extensive and tedious rote memory. It's visual. One can memorize in less than half the time. (the rule is about 30 seconds, the scales is the time one takes for the manual labor)
Hope this helps,