Stuck in the "BOX" need some help

I've been stuck in the box for a while now and i want to learn some new scales but the pentatonic just feels so natrual. is it because i am used to it, or are the other scales out there just not feel right. Let me know which scales feel right to you.

If you like the pentatonic minor & blues box, you'd probably like Aeolian (Natural Minor) & Phrygian modes of the major scale.

E minor (Aeolian) : E F# G A B C D [E]
A minor (Aeolian) : A B C D E F G [A]
E phrygian : E F G A B C D [E]

Go up and down the fretboards with the same patterns to change the root of the scale (mode).

You should learn the major scales and how to make modes and chord progressions out of them.

Dude,

SLY is totally right, learn the basic major and minor scales. Learn the relative major minor keys. Seriously the basic pentatonics are based off of these and only add a couple more notes to memorize the positions on. Modes is a whole other musical theory thing to concern yourself with but it's worht it to know. If you want to get unboxed experiment with keys and stuff. Learn new things. Play off the top fo your head. or think some new stuff up. All it takes is effort to break your old habbits.

Hope that helps any.

This may prove helpfull. There is much work involved. With honest dedication, this should not take long to be functional.
Modes

I have a different, but functional way at looking, or more importantly, playing and hearing modes.

First, there are only five basic chord forms on the guitar. Modes are quickly found by understanding intervals and intervals within those chord forms and thoroughly knowing how to play major scales. Also, two ways to alter them, simply. (works great in terms of pentatonic.)

Second, to make this system work, thorough knowledge of playing major scales is paramount.
Berklee series shows all 7 forms of major scales for the guitar. Quickly speaking, to alter any major scale is to lower the third (b3) or raise the fifth (#5). A very fast way to learn harmonic and melodic minors. Both versions of pentatonic, major and minor. (5 forms) (really the same thing, just point of view.)

Third, the trick. I don't much care about whether it's per key, per chord or cycle, I am after the
sound.

Play a major scale from:

Ionian - Root (for G play Gmaj scale) I

Dorian - b7 or whole step down from root (for G play Fmaj scale) ii

Phyrgian -m6 above the root (M3 below the root) (for G play Ebmaj scale) iii

Lydian -5th above the root (for G play Dmaj scale) IV

Mixolydian - 4th above the root (for G play Cmaj scale) V

Aeolian - m3 above the root (M6 below the root) (for G play Bbmaj scale) vi

Locrian -1/2 step above the root (for G play Abmaj scale) vii


This system will expand everyone's musical ability, regardless of genre, blues, country, rock, jazz or pop. There will be a certain amount of practicing. Jamming helps. Using this system is great for creating new and/or personal licks. If one is a pentatonic player, it's a great way to visualize the guitar and expand your playing. This system is so ingrained into my psyche, I know longer think or even know I am using it.

Originally posted by griphon2


Play a major scale from:

Ionian - Root (for G play Gmaj scale) I

Dorian - b7 or whole step down from root (for G play Fmaj scale) ii

Phyrgian -m6 above the root (M3 below the root) (for G play Ebmaj scale) iii

Lydian -5th above the root (for G play Dmaj scale) IV

Mixolydian - 4th above the root (for G play Cmaj scale) V

Aeolian - m3 above the root (M6 below the root) (for G play Bbmaj scale) vi

Locrian -1/2 step above the root (for G play Abmaj scale) vii

Good explaination on the tonalities of scales and how they relate. I'm following you on what your saying, but I don't see where practicing one scale is gonna help learn another scales meaning. I'm going to take the Mixolydian as an example. So to play a G mixolydian scale, you can play a C Major scale. Now they are the same notes, but the root is different. The root is the most important note in a scale, so that may cause confusion. When you wanna practice a scale, I think your should start on the lowest root note and work your way up to the highest root note, then back down. So you would be learning the C major scale, not the G mixolydian?? The root is what makes a scale, your understanding and how it works with the music. So G should be undertsood as the root, not C. I do see where your coming from, but you could be missing a valuable thing, the understanding of the root of those modes.

"I can never swallow your false ideals of a lifeless happy ending"

What this means, I have no idea. I've not made a dime on this logic. As a matter of fact, I would bet I am poorer than you. It does not matter to me whether you trust me or not. Just DO what I am telling you. I frankly, don't need this hatefullness. You either want to see new, or you don't.
I'm sorry that work is hard. But...
Tom

Get rid of this logic. Root note, etc. You're stuck. My idea is sound. Forget about theory, or whatever you've been told, sort of. Play buddy. Take the knowledge you have acquired, and RUN! Do the work.

I'd hate to see very simple logic be ignored.
I hope this forum is not wasted.

WOW! I think you need some anger management classes, griphon2. And the fact that you take pride in being poorer than me, what the heck does that have to do with anything. I don't know what I said to tick you off, I just didn't get how learning a different scale is gonna help learn a completely different scale based on what you said. I will explain. As for bringing up my quote, again whats that have to do anything?? If you don't want hatefulness then learn to control yourself. This thread is for people to talk about music theory, not how much poorer you are or you must do what I say.

I'm sorry to inform you on your new idea, but modes consist in all scales. And they all coincide with other scales. So what you said is not new. Like the A minor scale has the same notes as the C major scale. But your not learning the A minor scale by playing the C major scale. The tonalities are different. They are called two different scales for that reason.

Play these and you'll see.
C maj
E:---------------------------------
B:---------------------------------
G:------------2-4-5-4-2------------
D:------2-3-5-----------5-3-2------
A:--3-5-----------------------5-3--
E:---------------------------------

Now play the A minor
E:---------------------------------
B:---------------------------------
G:--------------0-2-0--------------
D:--------0-2-3-------3-2-0--------
A:--0-2-3-------------------3-2-0--
E:---------------------------------

Play the G mixolydian
E:---------------------------------
B:---------------------------------
G:---------------------------------
D:------------2-3-5-3-2------------
A:------2-3-5-----------5-3-2------
E:--3-5-----------------------5-3--

Now if you played them, you could hear a slight difference in the way the notes relate. Especially when you played up to the root and back down, that root note sticks out. When you move though each, the difference is the tonality. Although they all have the same notes, the tonal center is different. So you would be learning the scale based on what the tonal center was. Your ear is the judge, jury and executioner in every musical endevour. When playing scales, your ear will grasp more onto the tonal center than any other note in the scale. So your only confusing yourself. Although it may work in the end it's a longer process.

You can learn all the modes in one day. Here's an easy way to learn modes.

Step 1: Start with a C major scale (Ionian).

E:-------------------
B:-------------------
G:------------2-4-5--
D:------2-3-5--------
A:--3-5--------------
E:-------------------

Step 2: Now flat the 7th note and you have the C mixolydian.

E:-------------------
B:-------------------
G:------------2-3-5--
D:------2-3-5--------
A:--3-5--------------
E:-------------------

Play the Mixolydian scale, but now flat the 3rd. Now you got C Dorian.

E:-------------------
B:-------------------
G:------------2-3-5--
D:--------3-5--------
A:--3-5-6------------
E:-------------------

Play that scale again but this time flat the 6th note, and now you have the C minor scale (Aelion).

E:---------------------
B:---------------------
G:--------------3-5----
D:--------3-5-6--------
A:--3-5-6--------------
E:---------------------

Repeat... this time flatten the second note, now you have the C Phrygian scale.

E:---------------------
B:---------------------
G:--------------3-5----
D:--------3-5-6--------
A:--3-4-6--------------
E:---------------------

Repeat... now flatten the fifth note, now you have the C Locrian scale.

E:---------------------
B:---------------------
G:--------------3-5----
D:--------3-4-6--------
A:--3-4-6--------------
E:---------------------

Last, go back and play the C major scale again. This time raise the fourth note up one fret and you will have the C Lydian scale.

E:-------------------
B:-------------------
G:------------2-4-5--
D:------2-4-5--------
A:--3-5--------------
E:-------------------

There's all your modes learned step by step. There are also other modals scales like spanish phrygain, and dorian b2 which will fit in this step-by-step process but I have choosen to leave them out, due to the fact that you should learn the major/minor modals first.

Also, I forgot to meantion one very important thing. When going through these scales. Listen for the note that has has been altered from the previous scale.

Example. Play the C mixolydian scale and listen to the B flat, then play the C major scale and listen how the B flat is now a B natural. Then go back and play the C mixolydian scale again. See how the scale sounds different from altering just one note. Repeat this process all the way up to the last mode.

This will help you gradually understand how each scale sounds different. If you run through them all really fast, they all sound sort of the same. Just take some time to listen closely to how the gradually alter one note at a time. Soon you'll learn them all by the way they sound in no time.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 01-08-2003 at 11:17 PM]

Originally posted by griphon2
Get rid of this logic. Root note, etc. You're stuck. My idea is sound. Forget about theory, or whatever you've been told, sort of. Play buddy. Take the knowledge you have acquired, and RUN! Do the work.

Ok, griphon. I'll explain why your "easy logic" is so much harder to learn. First, I hope you understand when you play a scale, you start with the root. That is how it is understood! If your still unaware of this, I'll show you why in a few.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, the idea of learning the C major scale is the same as the G Mixolydian? Because they have the same notes right? Does this mean if you know the C major scale, you also know D dorian, E phyrgian??? NO!!! You have to learn those individually cause they are DIFFERENT SCALES. Here's how screwed up your idea is. First of all, if you are starting with a different note in any scale, you are playing that scales mode. So by playing the C major scale, you learn the G mixolydian. NO! You just learned the Mode of the G mixolydian scale, which is a mode to begin with. So your just learned a mode of a mode which makes no sense, and it only throws you for a loop back to figuring out the G mixolydian scale. WHICH IS WHERE YOU WANTED TO START IN THE FIRST PLACE! I'll explain.

Originally posted by griphon2
Mixolydian - 4th above the root (for G play Cmaj scale) V

With saying it this way and doing it this way. Although it is correct in a way, all you did was reverse the process of what modes are. *A mode is nothing more than playing a scale but your starting with a note other than the root. So with your way, Play the C major scale to learn the G mixolydian scale. Your still gonna have to start with the G, so you just made the process LONGER!!!!! Like I wrote at the end of the previous paragraph. Why not say play the C major scale but start with the G, and you will have the G mixolydian scale. This is more sound, makes more sense, and is a much faster process *2! Getting it??

Unless you start a scale on a note other than the root? You would be the only one, because your going back into the modal scales again. Looping endlessly. WHEN YOU PLAY A UNDERSTOOD SCALE YOU START WILL THE ROOT!!! Scales are based on interval patterns starting with the Root Note! I hope your getting this now. And when someone asks you to play a G mixolydian scale, you dont play the C major scale. Unless you want to be taking for an idiot!

Do it your way Griphon. If it works for you, thats great. But to a beginner who wants to understand modes, or to someone who is just looking for info. Your concept can become very confusing to them. It's almost like your saying there is no need for modes, cause the C major scale has the same notes as the D dorian scale. So in the end, why even have the D dorian?? This won't help anyone who is trying to learn about modes. Your idea of tonalities is good, but not the explanation of modes.

Footnotes:
* There is more to this definition, but it doesn't mean anything to this discussion. And what I mean by root is C to the C major scale (also C Ionain).

*2 I still don't advice this way, because the first thing your thinking of is the C major scale. When you want to be thinking of the G mixolydian scale first and only. Learn each scale individually, like you learned the major and minor scales. It's easier when you need to pull them out and takes less brain power.

Hey fellas, Calm down... These kinda forums are just to chat friendly, have some fun & benefit from each other's knowledges & experience... That's all, it's not for challenging each other about who knows more about scales & chords.

You guys shouldn't take it so hard.

Peace. :)

Ahh.. I'm cool SLY. :) I'm actually trying to make this a discussion to understand griphon. Since I didn't agree with how his idea works, he got p*st. I'm trying to talk to him and explain to him that I don't see how his idea is "the easy way of modes". If I'm wrong (which he's gotta prove), then I would learn something new. If I'm right then maybe he will learn something. It's still a friendly debate from my point of view. I think it will benefit both of us, and maybe others.

I'll admit, my reaction was poor. I profusely apologize.

Modes are not used in the Classical sense. Modes are used in a functional sense in todays modern music. Music theory can get in the way of actual sound. To better understand my logic is to deconstruct in terms of function, not modes. The presentation of modes is classical, but not functional in terms of modern music. Understand the intervals, the physics or the theory doesn't say anything to the playing or listening. Understanding modes in terms of function will improve the ear. Which is what music is about. Theory can be an inhibitor. Music physics is a wonderful cerebral subject, but it doesn't make a salary unless you are already tenured. The system I espouse will improve playing.
Understanding why or how it works is a latter and later contemplation.
Simply put, a D7b9, a pentultimate, has a variety of options.
It could be approached modally or chordally, even worse, simply. But still, in terms of function. I rarely play these modes from the root. More often, I play from 3rd, 7th or extension. Bass players play root, especially when needed. It gives a modicum of freedom. Love your bass players, they can save you when you're wrong.
The initial request was to get out of the box. To be honest,
play a G and run through the system and hear what occurs.
You will see function. Modal writing in reality, is quite rare.
I am extremely sorry to cause such a fuss.
Please forgive me of my errant way and response.

Griphon2, I also apologize on my behalf, and I couldn't agree with you more on your last post. It was a very good written understanding of modes and what role they play in modern music. I also believe that music theory, when used incorrectly, can hinder any musical endeavor. It's music theory not music fact. The science of music theory is based on the understanding of music science, not a path to write better songs. I think it's sometimes taken that way too. When used correctly to understand the science, It will broaden the horizon from which you build on your musical creativity. The better you understand something, the more use your going to be able to get out of it.

I noticed this when I would jam with other guitarists; they would always come up with stuff in Major or Minor keys. I'd ask them what scales they knew, and they would only know those two (except pentatonic which is still based on major/minor scales). It doesn't say their not good guitarists, but their music output was very limited. Next, I would play something and if it wasn't in those keys, they had a hard time putting something to it cause they were searching for the notes. Or they would come up with something very blandish, cause they only used major and minor scales. The inner ear works on how much it knows, if you have never heard a Locrian mode or practiced it. You probably won't think up something in that mode, cause you don't know it. Everything else is very hazy and clouded, although the idea is there is not concrete. You will always dominantly hear ideas in the keys/scales/modes that you know. The more you know, the more you can do! Knowledge is power, and the ear is based on your knowledge!

I believe understanding should come first especially when learning scales. Understanding gives you a nice foundation to use what you have newly acquired. Without it, it's just another pattern of notes, and how is that going to help you? I also believe you should start with the root when learning a scale. For learning and understanding the scale, the root gives you a solid foundation to build knowledge on. That why it's called the root. Later when you incorporate them into your music, you probably will never start with the root. If you’re learning a mode like the Locrian, watch starting on the 7th. You’re only playing the minor scale again!

Now as you said, a D7b9 can be approached modally. An understanding of which modal scales work nicely with the chord will give you a nice solid base to stand with. This is where theory is a benefit, especially when coupled will good ear training. The chord D7b9 contains the notes D, F#, A, C, and Eb. Two different scales work nicely over that chord. When I mean nicely, I mean they contain the tones that sound pleasant to the ear relative to that chord. One scale is the Spanish Phrygian scale, and the other is the Lydian Dominant Scale. The first scale contains the notes D, Eb, F#, G, A, Bb, C, and the second contains D, E, F#, G#, A, B, C. Together the notes are D, Eb, E, F#, G, G#, A, Bb, B, C. The only notes left out are the F and C# which would change the initial spelling to a Dmaj7b5. Unless this is what you first intended to have there, these notes are excluded and rarely brought back to give a discordant sound. The reason is the F falls in between the notes E, and F#. So you would have E, F, F#, and G boxed in the chordal sound, which is very discordant. Same with the C# that falls in between C and D. So you get C, C#, D, and Eb boxed together, not very pleasant sounding. If this is what you were looking for, this understanding helps that much. Next is which one to choose to play. There is no choosing!! Now if you know how each scale sounds, and you've learned them. Your inner ear will involuntarily choose the one it wants, cause it knows how each tone will interact with the sound. The melody you want to play will fall into one of these scales (modes), maybe both at separate points. The benefit is you will know where to start because your understanding is solid. Knowing all the scales possible gives you every angle to approach music. The base of music theory is understanding.

Modal composition is extremely rare as Griphon said. You may find it though, mostly in guitar solos. Especially metal, since metal solos are based on the art of Fugue. Want to learn how modes sound and how to use them, listen to and analyze Bach's music.

Makes sense to me.
For D7b9, your solutions were melodic and harmonic minor scales. It's an awful lot of information for the average player to digest. To me, the guitar is extremely visual.
Assuming the change is at the 5th fret, quickly or at a jam, I'd just play an Eb major scale within the context of the change. I've been doing this for a long time. It fits well within maj or min pentatonic, depending on which pentatonic one learns first. It's a fun way to learn scales, modes and the like. It was the easiest way for me to learn all of this stuff so long ago. This method that I employ is just a quick way for a pentatonic player to get started on something new with some sort of control, and hopefully alleviate boredom. This is not easy for the average player to grasp. This system worked great for me.

That’s cool man. Whatever works, works! It is a lot of info for a beginner to take in, especially complex chords that don’t fit within the basic major or minor keys. Even harder when it comes to the theoretic views on how to harmonize them. I guess you have to want to learn that kind of stuff. It takes practice and more of an intermediate guitarist to obtain effective use of it.

Only to amend what has been said. Working strickly from pentatonics, whether major or minor, the system will work
extremely well. Pentatonics are only slightly extended arpeggios. Most pentatonic players learn to modify these scales through trial and error and/or help. This system will work even with all of this. It's like superimposing or using an overlay above a chord... or change (same meaning).
Many tunes do not stay in one key. They're called tonal centers. The system I espouse will get one through tonal centers, even with pentatonics, if the scales are learned thoroughly... only 5.
This system is a system for guitar players, that boils jazz, rock, pop and country into a few short pages. And it always works. This system will appear in many different ways depending upon curricula, but this is it in a nutshell.

I am, pretty much, a chordal or tonal center player. In all that possibility. I,i or V. (there are a few curves within that notion.) But basically, that's it. I use modes as a function of harmony. The lawyer, or doctor may not know what I am doing, but I do. I wish I could charge what they do. Without creative people, they are as boring as this message.

I tried your system and I believe it does work if one thing is understood. Playing a C major scale from the root C, isnt playing or learning the G mixolydian. For one who already knows the major and minor scales, and is looking for a easy way to find the modes. It is a good way to find the notes of the G mixolydian scale (mode) on the fretboard by playing th C major scale. How Pentatonics relate to this, I am still not seeing. I dunno. To me, Pentatonics are just five note scales that work well with the root you are harmonizing over. Without writting too much about them. Penta 'means five' and tonic 'means root'.

I use modes, more than I think most people, as harmonizing certain chords and also as a transport scale to get from one key to the next. Since some chords don't modulate natural with other scales, I'll use a mode. An example is a diminished chord, there is only one in each major or minor key so you can't modulate naturally between keys. I'll bring in a mode to accomplish this. The easiest example is the Locrian mode, since it contains the formula 1, b3, b5. The formula of a diminished chord. So if I end a locrian scale run on the root, I can start the new key on that diminshed chord. Starting a chord progression on the diminished chord is a good way to build an outro.