Modes + solos

OK, so I understand what the different modes are. I also know where the different scales lie on the fretboard (not in the complete sense, but work with me here.)

Now, my question is: "How do you use a different mode to solo in?" Since it's a solo, you're using notes all over the scale - how would you distinguish two different modes? Is it dependent on what note you start your particular run on?

Thanks a lot for your help.



Oh yeah, and Christoph - is your signature a Leonard Cohen poem?

Say your solo's tonal center is C (the "home chord" is C... it sounds resolved when it hits the C chord). Well, pick a C mode that fits your mood best. Do you want an evil sounding solo? Go for C Locrian. A bit of spanish? Tr C Phyrgian. Joy to the world, happy, happy sound? C Ionian. A little jazzy feel, C Dorian. You get my point. Try different modes using the same tonal center.

Which mode you use depends on the chord progression. If you have a progression that goes C, Am, G, it's gunna sound like rat crap if you try to play C Dorian over it. You have to use major. Now if your progression goes Cm7, F7, Gm7, the C Dorian will work fine. It all has to do with how the modes fit into the revolving key signature of the chord progression.


Well, my sig is a poem alright. It's the first stanza from a Lord Byron poem actually.

OK, perhaps my question wasn't totally clear.

For example, you have a chord progression of, um, i dunno, Am, C, E and F (i think that's the key of C). What notes would make up a C Dorian solo over that progression? C Lydian? C etc.?

E.g. let's say I play:


e--------------------------------------------------
b--------------------------------------------------
g--------------------5---7b9r7------5--------------
d------------5---7--------------7-------7----------
a----5---7-----------------------------------------
e--------------------------------------------------


what mode is this in? how would I change it to another mode?

Since the modes are simply the major scale but with different starting and ending points, how is that relevant to a solo, where you have different starting and ending notes for each run, and where you use all the notes in the scale?


Could you please name some famous solos and the modes that they're in? Maybe that'll clear it up a bit for me...



[And Christoph, I just realized that I was confused about your signature. I mixed it up with "Go by brooks" by Leonard Cohen. Boy, do I feel embarrassed.]

[Edited by iamthe_eggman on 09-11-2002 at 03:47 PM]

Aaah, I think I spot your confusion...
The modes can indeed be said to be the same scale but starting out in different points, but you've missed a crucial point: If you play a C major scale starting on D, you are playing a D dorian, not a C dorian. C dorian is the second mode of Bb Ionian, and the notes are: C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb.
Now, you could say that when you played a solo in C major, you were playing in the modes C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, etc. which would be more correct than saying you were playing in C Ionian, C Dorian, etc (which is wrong, as I note above), but it would still be not correct.
As TheDirt says, the mode is related to the tonal centre. So, when you play over a C major scale you are playing in C Ionian (or C Lydian maybe), because the tonal centre is C. YOu are not playing in E Phrygian, because the solo doesn't resolve to the E.
Does this help a bit?

Thanks for your replies, guys.

Yes, Bardsley, your explanation did clear things up a bit for me. Why would playing a C major scale be either in C Ionian or Lydian?

So, for example, if I wanted to play a C Phrygian solo over a progression in the key of C, I would use the notes in the G# major scale - is this correct?

This does make a little bit of sense for me, because recently we were jamming to a classical piece in the key of E, according to the pianist, but nothing I was playing over top of it in the E major scale sounded right, until I switched to the C#m scale, and everything sounded nice.

I suggested playing different C modes over C progressions. When I suggested trying C modes over a C tonal center chord prgoression, I wasn't talking about playing C Locrian over a C Major progression... I'll try to clarify what I was trying to get across in my first post. First try putting the modes into three categories: Major, Minor and Diminished.

Major - Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian
Minor - Dorian, Aeolian, Phyrgian
Dim - Locrian

If you're playing in C Major, with chords of say, C, Am, F, G, it sounds "normal" to play in C Ionian. But, you can use other C modes to get a more exotic sound that you may like better. I've found that sometimes, a minor pentatonic scale fits quite well over a major key. Try recording thsi C, Am, F, G and playing in C Minor Pentatonic. It gives the song a very blusey feel. You can also play in C Lydian or Mixolydian, but any other modes is kind of pushing it.
Playing a song in A Minor, such as Am, F, G, E, one can use the A Dorian, Aeolian, or Phyrgian mode, as well as A Harmonic minor. Don't try playing in A Ionian, though...
Now finally, that weird little locrian mode... I've only written one progression that scounds good and the locrian mode fits. Am, Bb, Am, G... try this either with power chords, or with a reggae feel in the upper register - both sound pretty cool, and A Locrian fits over it, as well as A Minor pentatonic.

Alright, I just want to make 100% sure that I understand this, I hope you guys don't feel like I'm beating it to death...

So, I have a C Major progression. I want to solo over it in C Lydian. Therefore, I'll use the notes in the G major scale (i.e. G, A, B, C, D, E, F#). Is this correct?

In my other example of soloing over a C Major progression in C Phrygian, I wasn't giving a real life example, just a hypothetical situation, but I guess the above example makes more sense musically.

OK, what I'm trying to say, is, forget the examples that I'm using - I'm a beginner with music theory and can't give you theoretically correct examples.

Anyways, when someone says "I'm going to solo in X Phrygian over this progression which is in Y major," does this mean that you use the notes in the X major scale to form your solo?

That's all my question is - I'm not worried about what will fit or technicalities.

Originally posted by aiwass
Ok, now I'M confused... Tehoretically, you couldn't use C lydian over a C major chord unless the piece was in G major/E minor...

Not really true...
C Lydian has a #4, or, an F#. This means that if any chord in the key of C major has an F in it, you can't play a lydian scale over it (well... you can try...).
So, in C major, these chords have an F:
D min
F maj (obviously)
G7 (A common Chord in C major)
However, this leaves:
C (though don't play a Csus4)
E min
G maj
A min
B dim
Therefore, if you play a chord progression with these chords, you could still solo in Lydian. Of course, thinking modally requires you to think a bit differently than usual.
When you play a chord progression, you normally try to pick what major or minor key the chords fit into.
Therefore, a progression that went like this: C, D, G, C would be in the key of G major. However, what if tyhe bassline is playing a riff with C as the tonal centre?
Often it doesn't work to think of the Ionian key when soloing, but rather the mode (with the same notes) that relates more to the tonal centre of the piece.
Sure, you play C lydian over something in the key of G major or E minor, but in that case you are either playing G Ionian, or E Aeolian. There is no sense of thinking of the scale being C lydian, because the C is not the focus for the solo (it better not be over a G chord, as the C note really clashes with the B in a G major chord). Rather, it is useful to think of playing in a particular mode when the obvious centre of a progression is a particular note, but the notes in the chords don't correspond with the "normal" Ionian mode.

Ok, almost enough boring everyone. The second, great use of modes, is when playing over extended periods of single chord vamps. If you play a groovy C major chord stab, you are leaving many options open for soloing. You could play Ionian, sure, but afte a while this might get a bit boring. You could play a Lydian scale (just watch that the rhythm player doesn't play a sus4), and this would mix it up a bit, especially if you vary. You could also play a mixolydian scale, making the chord move to a C7. If the rhythm player is on the ball, (s)he will often start playing a C7 chord if they here you playing the mixolydian mode, which will add grooviness. Then, once they go to a C7 chord, you can move from the mixolydian to a C minor Pentatonic, which, if you play any blues you know sounds good over a C7 chord. Therefore, rather than staying with the notes C,D,E,F,G,A,B, you moved to C,D,E,F#,G,A,B to C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb then to C,Eb,F,G,Bb. Try this sometime, either by getting another guitarist to paly the chords (making them play close attention if you want to start moving to a dominant 7th or especially minor pentatonic), or by doing an exercise I find really useful: play a short melodic bar or two (or a million) in C, and resolve it to a C major chord. Then, when you're ready, play meloodic phrases in C Lydian, then resolve to the C major. Then Mixolydian to C7, then Cpent. to C7. YOu can of course keep going. Cpent to C minor, C aeolian to C minor, etc., but probably just stop at the major sounding ones for now. Now to me, that is where it is useful to think about modes: as ways to push the chord (either single or in a progression) into another direction. It is particularly great if you have a great rhythm player to back you up, as they will happily change chords to keep up with where you want to go.

Now, to actually answer your question... :D
If you want to play an X Phrygian scale over something in Y major, you still have to use the notes in the key of Y major. This means that, unless the key is, in a modal kind of way, based on the X note, you are not really playing an X phrygian scale at all, but Y major scale. Try it, loop a progression of C, F, G for as long as oyu like. No matter how you try playing E phrygian (the notes of the C major scale make up the E phrygian mode), it will end up sounding like a C Ionian scale. If you try playing C phrygian... Car Crash (I can't begin to tell you hoq many notes clash). To really play something in E Phrygian, you need to be playing over something in E minor that doesn't have notes outside of the E phrygian mode. The easiest example is again if they play an e minor chord foor a couple of bars: this will give you the oppurtunity to play that E phrygian scale without worrying about it clashing with other chords in the key of E minor (eg: F# minor when there is an F in E phrygian). Hope this helps! I've written WAY too much I know, but it's a tough topic to fully explain.

OK, I'm right back where I started, then.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't E Phrygian made up of the same notes as, say, E Dorian?

So, if I decide to solo using E Dorian vs. E Phrygian, does this not mean that I'm using the same notes anyways? How does this affect my solo? Someone mentioned something regarding the tonal center, or the note that the solo resolves to, but in the course of a solo, not each passage necessarily resolves to the same note.

BTW, if my persistence in this discussion is starting to frustrate anyone, please feel free to stop responding, and my sincere apologies!

No to your question, eggman
E Phyrgian = E, F, G, A, B, C, D
E Dorian = E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D, E
D Dorian = D, E, F, G, A, B, C
E Phyrgian = D Dorian, NOT E Dorian

If you're playing over a plain old E Minor chord, and that's it... just a long vamp on E Minor, you could play either E Phyrgian or E Dorian. The difference between the two is the F# and the C#. Playing in Dorian would give you a more jazzy feel and phyrgian a more spanish feel. If you're playing over a chord progression, however, such as, Em, D, C, D, you'd almost have to use E Aeolian, because playing a C# (in E dorian) over a C chord doesn't sound to pretty... neither does playing an F (E in phyrgian) over a D chord. Make sense?

Originally posted by TheDirt
No to your question, eggman
E Phyrgian = E, F, G, A, B, C, D
E Dorian = E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D, E
D Dorian = D, E, F, G, A, B, C
E Phyrgian = D Dorian, NOT E Dorian

Oh yeah! I just realized that I was wrong about E Phrygian and E Dorian being made up of the same notes...

So, with your example of the Em chord, playing E Phrygian over top of it would work - you could also say that you're playing C Ionian over top of it, no? It would just be more confusing, but technically correct, right?

This is starting to make much more sense to me now, guys - thanks for your patience and help!!!

Yeah, the notes of E phrygian and D dorian are the same (both in the "key" of C major), not all the different E modes....
What I meant was, aiwass, that it's useful not to think about it being in some overriding "key" based on the Ionian mode, but in the key that the mode is. So E phrygian is in the key of E... phrygian. This is of course a completely different key to E major, which is E Ionian.
Iamtheeggman, if you are still confused, it's because I'm not good enough at explaining, don't blame yourself! :o

Basically itds the Chord progression that determines the MODES You can choose, thats what im getting

you said this,
"Not really true...
C Lydian has a #4, or, an F#. This means that if any chord in the key of C major has an F in it, you can't play a lydian scale over it (well... you can try...).
So, in C major, these chords have an F:
D min
F maj (obviously)
G7 (A common Chord in C major)
However, this leaves:
C (though don't play a Csus4)
E min
G maj
A min
B dim
Therefore, if you play a chord progression with these chords, you could still solo in Lydian. Of course, thinking modally requires you to think a bit differently than usual.
When you play a chord progression, you normally try to pick what major or minor key the chords fit into.
Therefore, a progression that went like this: C, D, G, C would be in the key of G major. However, what if tyhe bassline is playing a riff with C as the tonal centre?
Often it doesn't work to think of the Ionian key when soloing, but rather the mode (with the same notes) that relates more to the tonal centre of the piece.
Sure, you play C lydian over something in the key of G major or E minor, but in that case you are either playing G Ionian, or E Aeolian. There is no sense of thinking of the scale being C lydian, because the C is not the focus for the solo (it better not be over a G chord, as the C note really clashes with the B in a G major chord). Rather, it is useful to think of playing in a particular mode when the obvious centre of a progression is a particular note, but the notes in the chords don't correspond with the "normal" Ionian mode.

Ok, almost enough boring everyone. The second, great use of modes, is when playing over extended periods of single chord vamps. If you play a groovy C major chord stab, you are leaving many options open for soloing. You could play Ionian, sure, but afte a while this might get a bit boring. You could play a Lydian scale (just watch that the rhythm player doesn't play a sus4), and this would mix it up a bit, especially if you vary. You could also play a mixolydian scale, making the chord move to a C7. If the rhythm player is on the ball, (s)he will often start playing a C7 chord if they here you playing the mixolydian mode, which will add grooviness. Then, once they go to a C7 chord, you can move from the mixolydian to a C minor Pentatonic, which, if you play any blues you know sounds good over a C7 chord. Therefore, rather than staying with the notes C,D,E,F,G,A,B, you moved to C,D,E,F#,G,A,B to C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb then to C,Eb,F,G,Bb. Try this sometime, either by getting another guitarist to paly the chords (making them play close attention if you want to start moving to a dominant 7th or especially minor pentatonic), or by doing an exercise I find really useful: play a short melodic bar or two (or a million) in C, and resolve it to a C major chord. Then, when you're ready, play meloodic phrases in C Lydian, then resolve to the C major. Then Mixolydian to C7, then Cpent. to C7. YOu can of course keep going. Cpent to C minor, C aeolian to C minor, etc., but probably just stop at the major sounding ones for now. Now to me, that is where it is useful to think about modes: as ways to push the chord (either single or in a progression) into another direction. It is particularly great if you have a great rhythm player to back you up, as they will happily change chords to keep up with where you want to go.

Now, to actually answer your question...
If you want to play an X Phrygian scale over something in Y major, you still have to use the notes in the key of Y major. This means that, unless the key is, in a modal kind of way, based on the X note, you are not really playing an X phrygian scale at all, but Y major scale. Try it, loop a progression of C, F, G for as long as oyu like. No matter how you try playing E phrygian (the notes of the C major scale make up the E phrygian mode), it will end up sounding like a C Ionian scale. If you try playing C phrygian... Car Crash (I can't begin to tell you hoq many notes clash). To really play something in E Phrygian, you need to be playing over something in E minor that doesn't have notes outside of the E phrygian mode. The easiest example is again if they play an e minor chord foor a couple of bars: this will give you the oppurtunity to play that E phrygian scale without worrying about it clashing with other chords in the key of E minor (eg: F# minor when there is an F in E phrygian). Hope this helps! I've written WAY too much I know, but it's a tough topic to fully explain."

That completly ****ed with my head, i dont know my ass form my head now!