More than one scale

After looking at many many many tutorials on GT, Im a little bit lost when it comes to improvise solo to a baking track.

Often it says you just play around in the scale of the key.

But, when I look at clips on youtube, many uses the whole neck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B9eHwxfmjI
take this one for an example.
How does one play more than one scale and how do I know how to play it so it sounds good to the backingtrack and to the ear.

Originally Posted by: SvanholmAfter looking at many many many tutorials on GT, Im a little bit lost when it comes to improvise solo to a baking track.

Improvisation has two basic components.

1. Knowledge of the scale or key & the chord progression.
2. An existing repertoire of licks that you can already play.

Yes, you need to know the key or which scale to use, but even more important, you need to use the scale to target the chord tones.

In the video you linked, the player has both components under his command! He is using E minor pentatonic as a basic template & he includes notes from E major pentatonic when they work for the chord that is currently happening. He also uses some chromatic passing tones. This simply means notes in between the pentatonic boxes that he con use to get conveniently from one box to the next.

How does he know which ones to use? And when to use them? :)

The answer is: experience, experimentation, trial & error.

This is how you build a repertoire of licks that you can already play, a vocabulary of things you can play at the drop of a hat. Improvisation is mostly playing pieces of things you already know, but mixing them up on the spot, artfully rearranging them.

Anders covers this extensively in the lead playing tutorials in the blues style courses. I cover it in many other tutorials.

For example, the guy in the vid took the time to learn a lick like this:

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1614

That whole tutorial is only about one lick. But it's such an important, widely used lick, you have to know it if you are going to play standard blues guitar. The guy in the vid knows that lick stone cold up & down. :) He can play it anywhere, anytime he wants. He plays it & variations on it many times throughout that vid.

Now that's just one lick. That guys know lots of little licks that he can string together at will. You also noticed he's moving around the neck. But he's still just using E minor & major pentatonic blues licks. Remember, the notes of any one scale cover the fretboard. They aren't in just one position!

With all that in mind, have you gone through the blues courses?

How about these tutorials on improv in which I explain the importance of targeting chord tones?

www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=876
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=483
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=491

After that you need to build your own repertoire of blues licks. I have a bunch of them in these tutorials. These are aimed at showing you how to use the pentatonic boxes to target chord tones in blues in order to play the kind of things that guy in the vid is doing!

www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=217
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=232
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=826
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=244

Now, if all this is too advanced, don't worry! Try starting with these simpler tutorials that are aimed at teaching the same thing, but from a more beginner level. If you work through these, you can eventually get to the more advanced stuff!

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=170
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=918
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=189
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=723
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1614

Have with it & let us know how it goes!

You guys on GT are the best, really. :)
I was waiting for you to say, PRACTICE!! :P

I havent complete the blues level 2 tutorials, yet. But Im planing to repeat both 1 and 2.

Do you mean that you can play the E panatronic scale on more than one place?
That I dont really get.

But Im gona check the links you posted and I will come back to you if there are some more questions. Ill bet it will be. :P

Thanks Chris.

There are actually 5 different pentatonic scale shapes that you can use. I've gone through blues 1 and more than halfway through blues 2 and I was surprised that only 1 shape is really used with some extensions on the bottom and top.

I had learned the 5 shapes when I was taking personal lessons years ago.

If you look at the guitar, you can play the same note (same pitch, not up or down an octave) in multiple places on the guitar. You use this to tune your guitar - you can play A on the 6th string 5th fret, or by playing the 5th string open. You can play an E on the 6th string 12th fret, 5th string 7th fret, or 4th string 2nd fret...all the same note!

I think the lessons focus on only a single shape because the focus is more on phrasing, not learning different positions. There is value in that. But yes, there are multiple shapes that do come in handy as you progress in your playing.

When I look at the scale finder, you can press G panatronic major, for an example. Then I can use 5 different patterns. Is it that you mean?

Originally Posted by: Svanholm
I was waiting for you to say, PRACTICE!! :P
[/quote]
It wasn't a very long wait, was it? :p
[QUOTE=Svanholm]
Do you mean that you can play the E panatronic scale on more than one place?
That I dont really get.

Yes. The E minor pentatonic scale has 5 notes.

E (root or 1st)
G (minor 3rd)
A (4th)
B (5th)
D (minor 7th)

Any place on the guitar you can find those notes, you are playing the E minor pentatonic scale. Any given pentatonic scale forms five "box shapes" that interlock across & cover the entire fretboard.

These tutorials are about locating the pentatonic scale across the entire fretboard.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=296
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=722
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=185

And ask all you want! That's what the forum is for. :)

thamks man.
Have been playing for 5 hours today practising from the links you posted.
It allt comes mutch more natural now and it feels better.


Yeah, I have a lot of questions. Just dont want to seam stupid. :P

You are welcome! Glad to hear you've been practicing so much.

Originally Posted by: SvanholmYeah, I have a lot of questions. Just dont want to seam stupid. :P

No one is born knowing this stuff. We have to learn it. If you don't ask, you'll never find out! :)

Yeah it was awesome. Can't wait to play again.

One last question thou.
Can I mix between, lets say, E minor pentatonic, E minor(aeolian) and E blues scale while jaming to a backing track in the key of E?

Originally Posted by: Svanholm
Can I mix between, lets say, E minor pentatonic, E minor(aeolian) and E blues scale while jaming to a backing track in the key of E?

There are 12 notes on the fretboard for you to choose from at any given time. If it sounds good, have at it!

You may find yourself "accidentally" using a note or notes outside of a given scale that you thought you were using (very common with pentatonic scales). You have the option of just going "hey, that note sounds really cool" and try to remember it in the future, or you can figure out what the note is, the other notes it sounds good with, and then determine the scale that you're actually using.

People combine the three scales you mentioned all the time. Another scale you may want to familiarize yourself with is Mixolydian. It tends to work very well over rock progressions. It has kind of an upbeat flavor, so it will take a bit of getting used to at first, but when you find a tune it fits with, you'll probably really like it.

Originally Posted by: SvanholmCan I mix between, lets say, E minor pentatonic, E minor(aeolian) and E blues scale while jaming to a backing track in the key of E?

As Slipin Lizard observes, you can play anything you want, any time. In the end, the only issue is: do you like the sound of the notes you are playing?

Having said that, there are notes, scales, licks that you will probably like more than others. So, a lot of practice, trial & error is necessary in order to build a vocabulary of things you like. Of your own style.

So, use all those scales! Use other ones, too! And learn to target chord tones so you can think it terms of what the chords & bass notes are in the backing track. That's very important to do so your playing sounds integrated, like it's working with instead of against the backing track.

It's more important to think in terms of: what sound do I want to create here?

Try a lick or scale. Does it sound good over a certain chord? If yes, remember it. Work on it, refine it. If no, then avoid it in the future!

After you get familiar with lots of scales & licks, with how to play over chord changes, to use different positions of scales to target chord tones, then you will get to the point where you'll know which scale to use based on what sound or lick you are trying to create at the time.

Thanks guys.
Will try that.

the reason why I ask those simple questions, are that Im not that good of hearing if its right or wrong.
So I have to know if its right in the theory. :P

Originally Posted by: Svanholm
the reason why I ask those simple questions, are that Im not that good of hearing if its right or wrong.
So I have to know if its right in the theory. :P

Part of what you are practicing is listening. It takes time to train your mind to integrate, to put together & grasp what you are playing (& seeing on the fretboard) and what you are hearing.

Think about it this way, when you heard the guy in the video did you like the sound of it right away? Did the licks he played sound right? :)

You already know some things you like the sound of. Now you just have to practice making your fingers do those things in time with the music!

Hey Chris, I know all this is between you and one of the other guys but I'd like to say how much I've learnt about guitar playing just by reading the detailed advice you give. It's obvious that you always go to a great deal of trouble to answer questions and I always read your posts, no matter who they're aimed at! Thanks again for your amazing support in GT,
Steve B

Yeah that makes sence. I'll bet that if I keep playing I probably will hear more and more what is right and wrong.


Steve, I cant agree more with what you just wrote. :)

Originally Posted by: Steve Barrow... I'd like to say how much I've learnt about guitar playing just by reading the detailed advice you give.

Good deal! Thanks for reading & for the compliments. :)

Originally Posted by: SvanholmI'll bet that if I keep playing I probably will hear more and more what is right and wrong.

Exactly! :)

Originally Posted by: SvanholmAfter looking at many many many tutorials on GT, Im a little bit lost when it comes to improvise solo to a baking track.

Often it says you just play around in the scale of the key.

But, when I look at clips on youtube, many uses the whole neck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B9eHwxfmjI
take this one for an example.
How does one play more than one scale and how do I know how to play it so it sounds good to the backingtrack and to the ear.

It would take a whole book to answer this question but here are some tips to get you on track!

1) Learn all of the 7 diatonic modal shapes first! (personally I prefer to learn the shapes with 3 notes per string)

2) Each time you practice techniques, you should do so going through all these shapes and linking up the neck so that you have these shapes memorised and can play them without thinking too much.

3) When you improvise you must always be aware of what chord you are playing over as that chord will indicate which scale shape you might want to choose to use. When the chord changes, slide up or down to the appropriate scale shape depending on what chord you are playing over.

Here's an example in the key of C:

C chord = C Ionian scale fits well over this chord
Dm chord = D Dorian scale fits well over this chord
Em chord = E Phrygian scale fits well over this chord
F chord = F Lydian scale fits well over this chord
G chord = G Mixolydian scale fits well over this chord
Am chord = A Aeolian scale fits well over this chord
Bdim chord = B Locrian scale fits well over this chord

When you take this approach a few things happen:

1) Of course you are in key
2) You highlight some of the best note choices to play over the chord in the backing track
3) Your soloing sounds less like guess work and fits nicely with the backing track

This is NOT a rule but a good place to start!

/Dave

Originally Posted by: David PortelliWhen you improvise you must always be aware of what chord you are playing over as that chord will indicate which scale shape you might want to choose to use. When the chord changes, slide up or down to the appropriate scale shape depending on what chord you are playing over.

Dave, are you suggesting that you change the scale every time the chord changes?

Originally Posted by: Slipin LizardDave, are you suggesting that you change the scale every time the chord changes?

Yes that is one way to do it so that your patterns fit over the chords like a glove. Remember that even though you are changing to a modal shape, that shape is still in key.

The sound you will get will almost remind you of playing with arpeggios but of course these shapes are not arpeggios. You will notice that the scale shapes really compliment the chord because they are based on the chord.

Another good thing about practicing this way is that it forces you to ALWAYS be aware of the chord progression and know what chords you are playing over.

There are many other methods but this one is a good start

/Dave