Soloing over Jazz Chords

Something I've been looking for in the lessons but haven't found is a lesson on how to do solos over a jazz chord progression.

I'm kind of an info/theory freak, and so I know quite a bit about jazz theory, but one thing I haven't grasped fully is how a jazz musician might choose a scale to play over any given jazz chord.

This is what I understand so far:
You generally have to go chord by chord. Because jazz chords are usually very colorful, a scale that works on one chord won't necessarily work on the following chord in a progression.

I also understand that one of the techniques for figuring out what scales sound good against a chord lies in breaking down a chord.

For example, you break down an Emin b9 chord, and get:
E, G, A#, C#, E, F, G (etc)

and you can take any four of the above notes, figure out what scales they belong to, and then use that scale against the chord.

But.... How would that work for a jazz song with fast chord changes? (For Example, Manha De Carnaval - Black Orpheus - has some very fast chord changes. How would I solo over that with without reverting to just a standard G mixo scale?)

Also, is there a place with a handy dandy reference of what scales sound good against what chord? It'd be pretty awesome if there was a list on the site that I could look up, and be like, "okay, flat nine chord... this scale would sound dark, this scale would sound more exotic," etc?

Any suggestions for chord/scale combos for soloing on the fly? Or better yet, any exercises I can do to get to the point where I can recognize chords being played, and know what kind of scale I want? Some sort of tester would be cool, something along the lines of, "we're going to play this chord for you, and want you to try these 3 different scales against it, so that you can figure out what each sounds like."


So in short, this post is asking for help with jazz soloing, and giving a few suggestions as well. You don't have to respond to the whole post at once, I'd appreciate anyone addressing even one or two of my questions. Thanks all!

~Jbird

Originally Posted by: FlyingJbirdSomething I've been looking for in the lessons but haven't found is a lesson on how to do solos over a jazz chord progression.
[/quote]
Here is an intro to the subject:

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=519
[QUOTE=FlyingJbird]
I'm kind of an info/theory freak, and so I know quite a bit about jazz theory, but one thing I haven't grasped fully is how a jazz musician might choose a scale to play over any given jazz chord.

Two fundamental approaches: structural & ornamental.

Structural is regarding the entire piece as in one home key and modualtions are dealt with as they occur, but everything is related back to the home key. You can even just focus on two and three chord blocks that form V-I or ii-V-I (or ii-V-i) changes as they occur. But the idea is to focus on functional harmony.

Ornamental is basically, just whatever sounds good at the time. without worrying about integrating everything that happens to an overall goal or home key. You have to build a mental list of how all possible modes sound and know which sound to pull out and play when you desire that certain sound.

And you can mix those basic approaches within one solo or song, too!

This works for fast or slow tunes or changes.

I am visiting with family right now. So I am short on time. Please have a look at the tutorial. Ask further questions and I will follow up next week!

Have fun with it!

One more thing, I almost forgot! :)

Originally Posted by: FlyingJbirdAlso, is there a place with a handy dandy reference of what scales sound good against what chord? It'd be pretty awesome if there was a list on the site that I could look up, and be like, "okay, flat nine chord... this scale would sound dark, this scale would sound more exotic," etc?

This is the basis for my practicing the modes tutorial. All the modes, practiced against a static chord. Lots of comparision and contrast. Learn the sound quality of each individual modes, associate the scale intervals with the pattern on the fretboard and with the sound of the mode. Know which mode to use when you desire certain specific sounds.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=770

Give it a try!

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelOne more thing, I almost forgot! :)

This is the basis for my practicing the modes tutorial. All the modes, practiced against a static chord. Lots of comparision and contrast. Learn the sound quality of each individual modes, associate the scale intervals with the pattern on the fretboard and with the sound of the mode. Know which mode to use when you desire certain specific sounds.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=770

Give it a try!

Wow, this should be majorly hepful, thanks!

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelStructural is regarding the entire piece as in one home key and modualtions are dealt with as they occur, but everything is related back to the home key. You can even just focus on two and three chord blocks that form V-I or ii-V-I (or ii-V-i) changes as they occur. But the idea is to focus on functional harmony.

Okay, so it sounds like this method would require looking at the song and analyzing it before hand.

Okay, so then, let's try to apply this a bit. I watched some of the videos you recommended (....24+9 is a LOT of videos to go through), and I think I have some ideas for how this might play out.

Okay, so let's look at an example. This is the sheet music I have for Manha De Carnaval (Black Orpheus):


I can tell you right off the bat, the song is in the key of Aminor, and the melody stays within the Aminor scale, with the exception of a few spots where there is an exceptionally colorful chord.

So it's pretty obvious the melody for this piece fits into the principle that you gave - find the "home key," and modulate where necessary.

But let's say I wanted to play more colorfully. In one of your videos, link , you mentioned using modes to pre-empt a chord change. Obviously, the A minor/harmonic minor scale works fantastically for the first set of chords, which is your basic 1-2-5 jazz progression. What scale might I pick to modulate over to the next chord set, which is Amin7-Dmin7-Gdom7?

D is the fifth of G, and A is the fifth of D. I think a Dmin scale could work well over the A-D-G progression. Dmin scale is the same as an A Phrygian scale, I think. So would I be right in using an A Phrygian scale right before the chord change?

Originally Posted by: FlyingJbird
Okay, so it sounds like this method would require looking at the song and analyzing it before hand.
[/quote]
Absolutely! :) Of course, the more you do this sort of thing, the quicker you can assess the possiblities and lessen the time between data gathering & application.

Originally Posted by: FlyingJbird
Okay, so let's look at an example. This is the sheet music I have for Manha De Carnaval (Black Orpheus)
[/quote]
The song is in A minor, good start. The question is becomes about dealing with those "exceptionally colorful chords". You must identify them and how they function. Are they functional or ornamental? Will your approach to them be functional or ornamental?

My video you mention is about a common classical & jazz technique. The idea is to prepare for the arriving chord. You can do this to any degree you want. If you can play fast enough, you could do this for every chord! Or you can do it 2 or 4 measures at a time. Or you can do it to match phrases. You can do it only when an actual modulation occurs. The choices you make in this regard is (or is what becomes) your own style. This is why Tatum sounds like Tatum, Bird sounds like Bird, Coltrane sounds like Coltrane, Martino sounds like Martino. etc. :)

So when you ask:
[QUOTE=FlyingJbird]
Obviously, the A minor/harmonic minor scale works fantastically for the first set of chords, which is your basic 1-2-5 jazz progression. What scale might I pick to modulate over to the next chord set, which is Amin7-Dmin7-Gdom7?

First, A harmonic minor IS a modulation. It is an altered scale! It's altered from the A minor natural, which is the relative minor of C major. And the key of C major is where this chord progression comes from in the first place:

A min (vi) - G7 (V7) - C (I)

Consider the very next chords:

C# dim7 (vii of ii) - D min7 (ii) - G7 (V7) - C6 (I)

Quite obviously we are in C major here. Ergo, D minor doesn't work as well as D dorian (being the 2nd mode of C major).

Notice that anytime the song uses an E chord with a major 3rd (G#) this implies the modulation to A harmonic minor. And when the song uses a G7 this implies A natural minor or C major.
[QUOTE=FlyingJbird]
Dmin scale is the same as an A Phrygian scale, I think. So would I be right in using an A Phrygian scale right before the chord change?

D minor scale contains these notes (D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C-D). Relative minor of F major; 3rd mode is indeed A phrygian. But it doesn't fit the song's melody or chord progression (there is no B-flat note; the song doesn't emphasize D minor or F major as a home key or strong key center).

So, you can of course play it, it will add a certain amount of dissonance. Just be aware of that fact.

Notice there is a modulation to D minor later on in the B section m.21. This is a very important "pivoting point" in the song in helping to change focus of tone center. Suddenly E7b9 (functioning as V7 of A) becomes Emin7b5 (functioning as ii of D minor; A7b9 as V of D minor).

However, if you wanted to get really bebopish, you could imply D minor scale right before any and all D minor chords regardless of the chord or key that is happening right before the D minor chord.

For example, in m.5 while the A min chord is happening, you could play notes from D minor scale that imply Emin7b5 (D minor) and then A7b9 (V of D minor). This sort of clashing dissonance with the A minor chord being played at the time is typical of some jazz. And some argue that it is actually an integrated idea or approach because it suggests (or "points to") the eventual arrival of the D minor key later on (which actually does happen). And some jazz guys would then find something else dissonant to play when the D minor modulation actually does arrive! Whew!

Make sense?!

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelAbsolutely! :) Of course, the more you do this sort of thing, the quicker you can assess the possiblities and lessen the time between data gathering & application.

Yay! I would hope this to be true, lol.

My video you mention is about a common classical & jazz technique. The idea is to prepare for the arriving chord. You can do this to any degree you want. If you can play fast enough, you could do this for every chord! Or you can do it 2 or 4 measures at a time. Or you can do it to match phrases. You can do it only when an actual modulation occurs. The choices you make in this regard is (or is what becomes) your own style. This is why Tatum sounds like Tatum, Bird sounds like Bird, Coltrane sounds like Coltrane, Martino sounds like Martino. etc. :)

I can only do this when a modulation occurs... now: do you mean I can only do this when the melody has to be changed to fit the chord? Or, would a modulation also occur if a chord being played has a note that does not fit in the given key (in this case, key of A minor)?

Consider the very next chords:

C# dim7 (vii of ii) - D min7 (ii) - G7 (V7) - C6 (I)

Quite obviously we are in C major here. Ergo, D minor doesn't work as well as D dorian (being the 2nd mode of C major).

Notice that anytime the song uses an E chord with a major 3rd (G#) this implies the modulation to A harmonic minor. And when the song uses a G7 this implies A natural minor or C major.

Okay, so are you saying D dorian fits because it works with the chords? Isn't that the same as an A minor with emphasis on the D? Are there any other scales that would sound nice against that chord set?

Okay, I get how G7 implies an A minor - because G7 is the 7th of A, and the 7th of a minor scale is a dominant chord. It's the exact same with the B half-diminished in the first chord set.

D minor scale contains these notes (D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C-D). Relative minor of F major; 3rd mode is indeed A phrygian. But it doesn't fit the song's melody or chord progression (there is no B-flat note; the song doesn't emphasize D minor or F major as a home key or strong key center).

So, you can of course play it, it will add a certain amount of dissonance. Just be aware of that fact.

Hm,
Amin7 - A, C, E, G
Dmin7 - D, F, A, C
G7 - G, B, D, F

Ah, I see it - a Bb is a minor second from B natural, and that's an ugly sound. So I could play an A phrygian scale, but I would want to revert back to A minor or the D dorian once the G7 chord comes up.

Notice there is a modulation to D minor later on in the B section m.21. This is a very important "pivoting point" in the song in helping to change focus of tone center. Suddenly E7b9 (functioning as V7 of A) becomes Emin7b5 (functioning as ii of D minor; A7b9 as V of D minor).

Yeah, I noticed that actually - that Bb is played on the second "verse" of the melody. So this is definitely an instance in which A phrygian scale (d minor) works.

However, if you wanted to get really bebopish, you could imply D minor scale right before any and all D minor chords regardless of the chord or key that is happening right before the D minor chord.

For example, in m.5 while the A min chord is happening, you could play notes from D minor scale that imply Emin7b5 (D minor) and then A7b9 (V of D minor). This sort of clashing dissonance with the A minor chord being played at the time is typical of some jazz. And some argue that it is actually an integrated idea or approach because it suggests (or "points to") the eventual arrival of the D minor key later on (which actually does happen). And some jazz guys would then find something else dissonant to play when the D minor modulation actually does arrive! Whew!

Make sense?!

Yeah, actually it does, lol.

Okay, so in m.5, during the Amin chord, I want to add in that Bb, which is in the D-min scale. That'll lead naturally to the Emin7b5 chord. The one thing I'm not sure of is A7b9 being the V of the Dminor scale - or rather, the notation. A7 is a major chord with a minor seventh. So where does that major third come from, since both Amin and Dmin have the A chord as a minor! Unless that's intentional dissonance to make the Dmin7 resolve better.

And on the "some jazz guys.." - the idea is lead up to the Dmin scale by using that A phrygian. So leading up to the chord, it's slightly dissonant, but it makes the chord resolve much better. And then, just as the chord resolves, I want to jump to a new scale?? So basically keep teasing baby, and keep that candy juuuuuust out of reach. :P

How does D dorian go over that Amin7-Dmin7-G7 chord set, though?

Originally Posted by: FlyingJbird
I can only do this when a modulation occurs... now: do you mean I can only do this when the melody has to be changed to fit the chord?
[/quote]
The melody doesn't necessarily have to reveal the modulation. But it can. Further ...

Originally Posted by: FlyingJbird
Or, would a modulation also occur if a chord being played has a note that does not fit in the given key (in this case, key of A minor)?
[/quote]
This can be evidence of modulation, when a note(s) present in the music is/are out of the home key (the key that the rest of the music is in). But, odd notes are not enough.

Consider a chromatic passing tone. Blues players do this all the time, put the flat five in a minor pentatonic scale over a 12 bar blues. You can have a simple C (I), F (IV), G (V) chord progression and play a C chromatic scale over it.

In both cases you only have accidentals, chromatic passing tones.

In order to have a modulation, you have to have notes that are out of key that suggest a change of key center through harmonic function.

Originally Posted by: FlyingJbird
Okay, so are you saying D dorian fits because it works with the chords?
[/quote]
Yes, and more, because it fits the harmonic function of the chord progression. Dorian suggests the ii chord of a major key; ii chords are sub-dominant.

A min (vi) intermediate or substitute tonic
D min (ii) sub dominant
G7 (V) dominant
C (I) tonic

Originally Posted by: FlyingJbird
Isn't that the same as an A minor with emphasis on the D?
[/quote]
Yes, but you are only thinking in terms of modes and notes. You need to expand that, build on that in order to see and hear harmonic functions.

Originally Posted by: FlyingJbird
Are there any other scales that would sound nice against that chord set?
[/quote]
That is only a question you can answer. :) I suggest trying all the possibilities and listen for what you like. Remember to keep what you like, and avoid what you don't. And remember, how you use or play any given scale can make it sound completely different. Emphasize or de-emphasize chord tones!
[QUOTE=FlyingJbird]
Okay, I get how G7 implies an A minor - because G7 is the 7th of A, and the 7th of a minor scale is a dominant chord. It's the exact same with the B half-diminished in the first chord set.

Kind of. Again we are looking at harmonic functions. G7 implies C major:

A min (vi) intermediate or substitute tonic
D min (ii) sub dominant
G7 (V) dominant
C (I) tonic

This is clearly C major. I would say the song is in A minor only when there is an E7 (V) resolving to an A minor (i). Like in the first 2 measures:

Bmin75b (ii) sub dominant
E7b9 (V) dominant
Amin (i) tonic
[QUOTE=FlyingJbird]
Yeah, I noticed that actually - that Bb is played on the second "verse" of the melody. So this is definitely an instance in which A phrygian scale (d minor) works.

Sure, but more importantly, look at the harmonic functions involved. From m.17, we start in the key of A minor.

Amin (i of Amin) / Bmin7b5 (ii of A min) - E7b9 (V of Amin) / Amin (i of Amin) / Bmin7b5 (ii of Amin) - E7b9 (V of A min) /

Interrupted resolution! Now we switch to the key of D minor!

Emin7b5 (ii of Dmin) / A7b9 (V of Dmin) / Dmin (i of Dmin) / Dmin (i of Dmin)

Now we can look at this next line two different ways. Either as in D minor for 2 measures, then switch the A minor.

D min (i of Dmin) - Dmin7/C (i of Dmin) / Bmin7b5 (ii of A) - E7b9 (V of A) /

Or as an immediate switch back to A minor.

D min (iv of Amin) - Dmin7/C (iv of Amin) / Bmin7b5 (ii of A) - E7b9 (V of A) / A min (i of Amin)
[QUOTE=FlyingJbird]
The one thing I'm not sure of is A7b9 being the V of the Dminor scale - or rather, the notation. A7 is a major chord with a minor seventh. So where does that major third come from, since both Amin and Dmin have the A chord as a minor! Unless that's intentional dissonance to make the Dmin7 resolve better.

The music changes to use the C# as the leading tone of D minor scale! We are now in D harmonic minor. This is the evidence that we have a modulation to the key of D minor. A7 is a dominant chord.
[QUOTE=FlyingJbird]
So leading up to the chord, it's slightly dissonant, but it makes the chord resolve much better. And then, just as the chord resolves, I want to jump to a new scale?? So basically keep teasing baby, and keep that candy juuuuuust out of reach. :P

Precisely. Suggest or imply the chord change that is coming up, and then change to suggest or imply the next one. This is why some jazz (especially bebop) can sound so "weird" or "outside". It is always implying what is coming next, even if or especially if that clashes with what is currently happening.
[QUOTE=FlyingJbird]
How does D dorian go over that Amin7-Dmin7-G7 chord set, though?

It only seems mystifying because you aren't looking at the harmonic goal! You left out the end goal of those chords, the C major:

A min (vi) intermediate or substitute tonic
D min (ii) sub dominant
G7 (V) dominant
C (I) tonic

Ergo:

A min (vi) intermediate or substitute tonic - A aeolian
D min (ii) sub dominant - D dorian
G7 (V) dominant - G mixolydian
C (I) tonic - C ionian

Which is all just C major scale notes. However, you need to use them to emphasize the chords that are happening at the time in a way that matches your sense of melody.

I will keep it short. The best thing to do until you get extremely savvy with jazz licks and tricks is to stick to chord tones of the chords you are playing over. This sounds very elementary in the beginning but see how successful you are at regular speed simply playing the chord tones over a song like that. Honestly, this song isn't too tricky from first glance. You do have a tonal center (A minor), and nearly all the chords fit into that except C#dim.7, A7b9, and Emi7b5. You also have some altered extensions on the V chord, but it stays in the key center mostly.

There is a ton of books, videos, and tutorials on this subject. Honestly, the best thing you can do is transcribe and listen to the masters and steal their tricks and integrate it into your note. The greatest jazz players worked all the days and nights of their lives to transcribe the licks that made their blood flow and I can tell you that did much more for them than practicing scales. Where as knowing your scales is crucial; listen to the greats and learn from those who made the music, not who intellectualized it.

Kurt Rosenwinkel came to Musician's Institute when i was a student there. Kurt is a fantastic modern day jazz player, and the head of GIT asked Kurt what he was thinking about while he soloed and what scales, etc. he was using. His answer was "Honestly, I have no ideas what I'm playing." As disheartening as that sounds, I think that is the case for most players. It isn't that they have no clue what's going on, but they are simply PLAYING and letting there ears take over.

I can tell you honestly that starting with the chord tones and than transcribing will really, really get you on your way. Know your scales, and I very much value all the knowledge and videos on this site for this subject (Thanks Chris!) But, take those two things into account as well and don't be too caught up in a million different scale choices.

That's the end of my ramble. Good luck. Below is a few videos from some jazz players I love.

Kurt Rosenwinkel
Jeff Parker
Nels Cline

Originally Posted by: CSchlegel
It only seems mystifying because you aren't looking at the harmonic goal! You left out the end goal of those chords, the C major:

A min (vi) intermediate or substitute tonic
D min (ii) sub dominant
G7 (V) dominant
C (I) tonic

Ergo:

A min (vi) intermediate or substitute tonic - A aeolian
D min (ii) sub dominant - D dorian
G7 (V) dominant - G mixolydian
C (I) tonic - C ionian

Which is all just C major scale notes. However, you need to use them to emphasize the chords that are happening at the time in a way that matches your sense of melody.

Okay, so it looks like the main thing that I'm not quite understanding right now is the harmonic function of the chord progressions. Can you explain that a bit more? I'm kind of lost by what the term means and how it is applied.




And Douglas, I appreciate your input too. I definitely know that scales are only a tool rather than a focal point - my guitar teacher back home sometimes likes to make that painfully clear. He'll start playing a 4 bar progression, and just have me play over it - won't tell me the key or anything. And then, just as I'm starting to figure out what sounds good, he changes the chords so that I have to alter the scale I'm using! It can be frustrating, but it's a good lesson. I'm just trying to learn this specific tool with the scales so that I can at least have some starting ideas on where to go. :)

Originally Posted by: FlyingJbirdOkay, so it looks like the main thing that I'm not quite understanding right now is the harmonic function of the chord progressions. Can you explain that a bit more? I'm kind of lost by what the term means and how it is applied.

There are two basic ways that chords can be categorized: functional or ornamental.

The function of any given chord in a series of chords is based on how the voice leading plays out from chord to chord. This means, how the individual notes of the chord "move" or "lead to" one another throughout the series of chords. The voices move in a way that is either:

1. Functional, which means they contain a goal directed motion that contains or implies tonal resolution (a clear V-I or V-i resolution) & chords that can clearly be labelled as such (tonic, dominant, sub-dominant, intermediant).

Or:

2. Ornamental, which means they do not contain a tonal resolution, they are merely placed together based on the effect they create.

This tutorial on music theory explains Functional Harmony:

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorials.php?input=495

Examples! Here is a series of chords:

A min - B min - C min - D min

These chords do not have any functional motion. There is no tonal resolution (in the the form of a V-i, tonic to dominant motion).

A min - D min - G7 - C maj

These chords have functional motion. There is a tonal resolution (in the form of a V-I, tonic to dominant motion (as well as other chords that function toward that goal).

Check out the music theory tutorial, it explains the terms!