circle of 5ths

ok so I do not understand the last few bits going clock wise

Father Christmas goes dancing after every breakfast.

what i dont get is how Fsharp has 6 sharps? :eek:

Well each Major scale is set up in the same way:

W, W, H, W, W, W, H
(W = Whole step (2 frets), H = Half step (1 fret))

To work out the notes in the F# Major scale (or key) look first at the chromatic scale (all the notes) starting from F#:

F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C, C#, D, D#, E, F

Then apply the whole-step-half-step formula:
F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, F, (F#)

Of course the final F# is just an octave higher than the first.

The idea of the "Circle of Fifths" is just a shorthand version of the above for all of the different Major and Minor scales/keys.

and the b maj? do i have to turn the e into esharp

Take the chromatic scale starting at B:

B, C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#

Apply the same formula/structure of W, W, H, W, W, W, H:

B C# D# E F# G# A#

Now compare the result to the circle of 5ths diagram and you can see it is exactly the same result as what you would see on a musical stave.

The name of the key is always a half step up from the last sharp. If there are 6 sharps, the last one is E#. A half step up from E# would be F, and since the first sharp is F you know its F#.

Originally Posted by: hunter1801The name of the key is always a half step up from the last sharp. If there are 6 sharps, the last one is E#. A half step up from E# would be F, and since the first sharp is F you know its F#.

I dont get it - i dont see a E# on my piano

Originally Posted by: gmixstudiosI dont get it - i dont see a E# on my piano

E-sharp IS F. Conversely, F-flat IS E. That is what meant by the term enharmonic; same pitch different name.

remember that a "sharp" is just a note raised by a half step. Anything can have a sharp, even if it is not a black key on the keyboard. If you raise something by a half step, it is "sharped". In that respect, raising a sharp by a half step becomes a "double sharp ##"

this whole circle of fifths thing is really confusing???

It only applies to Ieolian (natural major) right?? If that is the case I'm having a much easier time just knowing the intervals and plugging them in as I count up the musical alphabet!!!

What confuses me is how you use the circle??? How do I know which keys use flats or sharps??

The order of sharps is F-C-G-D-A-E-B....that's seven

flats is the opposite B-E-A-D-G-C-F


but if you look at the circle it only has 12 positions and C/Am is zero..so what gives with that...again how do you use it. If you count clockwise when do you switch to flats??? Or for flats do you count the other way, ie counterclockwise. According to the post it says Cm has three flats, so does that mean for flats you are counting the other way.

To me it seems way easier to do by ear. Can someone please clarify??

................................................................................................

on a side note...this is probably the best website EVER!! thank you to all the instructors for all the hard work and great knowledge!! I'm dedicating my first album to all of you!!!

peace
Keith

First off....you only need one "?" or "!" to make a sentence.

I just googled "circle of fifths" and got a lot of info, try it out.
http://www.circle-of-fifths.net/

That site helps you learn and understand it.
Basically sharps are added clockwise. Flats counter-clockwise. You kind of have to memorize the layout and the key names.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths
Thats the wiki

After you use Google and do some research come back and ask what you don't understand.

Hi Keith,

I know this circle of fifth thing can be confusing, but have you ever seen the visual? Here's a link. Look at this while you read my explanation below, and I'm sure you'll get it.

http://lessons4violin.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/fifths_pic.17692450.gif

Keep in mind that the circle of fifths is nothing but a tool to help you understand how scales and keys are formed, as well as how chords relate to each other. Something that's much easier for a lot of people to do by ear. But.... I find the combination of the two as the best solution.

So think of it this way

In the middle you have C (at 12 o clock) = no sharps, no flats

Go clockwise and you have all the "sharp" keys: G, D, A, E, F# (F# is at 6 o clock)

G has one sharp
D has two sharps
A has three sharps
E has four sharps
F# has five

Next question is: What sharps?

[U]F is always the first note you "sharp"[/U], so in G (where there is only one sharp) you sharp F, so that you have F#!

Next note you sharp is C, so in the key of D (where there are two sharps) you have the notes F# and C#.

Next note to be "sharped" is G, so in the key of A you have F#, C# and G#.

This way you continue clockwise, by first determining how many sharps you have by counting (again: c = 0, g=1, d=2 etc.) and then determining what notes to sharp by always starting with F, and then going clockwise in the circle of fifths (F, C, G, D, A)

Now.... On the left side of the circle of fifths you have the flat keys. Going counter clock wise you have

F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb (Gb is at 6 o clock... Gb is the same note as F#)

Same procedure again: How many flats? Remember we're going counter clock wise:

Bb has 1 flat
Eb has 2
Ab has 3
etc.

What notes do you flat? Again: We're going counter clock wise!

[U]B is always the first note you flat[/U]
E is the next one
A
etc.

So let's take a couple of examples:

Bb has two flats
The first note is always B, and after that is E, so the Bb scale is

Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A

Db has five flats
B, E, A, D, G

So the Db scale is

Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C


Now, the relative minor is the minor scale that has the same amount of sharps or flats as a given major key.

You can find the relative minors in the center of the circle. Fx Am has no sharps- just like C!

Bm has two sharps, just like D

Gm has one flat, just like Bb!

So that's how you use it to construct scales! Hope this helped. If not, don't hesitate to let me know!

Anders

PS: To answer your question, all the sharp keys could potentially be flat keys, but since you don't want more accidentals than necessary, you switch when you reach "6 o clock" (= Gb/F#)


........................................................................................................

Originally Posted by: hunter1801First off....you only need one "?" or "!" to make a sentence.

I just googled "circle of fifths" and got a lot of info, try it out.
http://www.circle-of-fifths.net/

That site helps you learn and understand it.
Basically sharps are added clockwise. Flats counter-clockwise. You kind of have to memorize the layout and the key names.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths
Thats the wiki

After you use Google and do some research come back and ask what you don't understand.

Hunter thanks for you reply but what was the point of it?? I obviously know I can go google search for it, but I signed up for this site for a reason, to get some help on things I don't understand!!! And in regards to the comment on my punctuation...really dude?? Where have you been? Multiples are in!!!

Originally Posted by: hwarang76Hunter thanks for you reply but what was the point of it?? I obviously know I can go google search for it, but I signed up for this site for a reason, to get some help on things I don't understand!!! And in regards to the comment on my punctuation...really dude?? Where have you been? Multiples are in!!!

He's right - mutiples ARE in !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by: hwarang76this whole circle of fifths thing is really confusing???

Quite a while ago I started making notes on a tutorial to create that would demystify the Circle of Fifths for Guitar Tricks students.

I don't have the videos done yet. But I do have the text outline of what I wanted to present. And this thread renewed my interest in this project. So, without further ado ...

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=835

Read through that and let me know if it helps or hinders.

Best of success!

Originally Posted by: hwarang76Hunter thanks for you reply but what was the point of it?? I obviously know I can go google search for it, but I signed up for this site for a reason, to get some help on things I don't understand!!! And in regards to the comment on my punctuation...really dude?? Where have you been? Multiples are in!!!

What was the point of my reply? Obviously you didn't read it since the point was pretty straight forward. I gave you links to a ton of information, a link to a site that helps you LEARN how to understand the circle of 5ths better (I might be confused, but isn't that what you're after?) and explained a little to clarify some things on your question.

Did you even look through the links I gave you?

There is no short cut or magic thing that we can tell you here. You have to do a little studying and reading about it on your own, which is why I pointed you in that direction. AFTER you read some info and try those links and you still don't understand something, you should come back and ask for clarification on things like I suggested.

but if you look at the circle it only has 12 positions and C/Am is zero..so what gives with that...again how do you use it. If you count clockwise when do you switch to flats??? Or for flats do you count the other way, ie counterclockwise. According to the post it says Cm has three flats, so does that mean for flats you are counting the other way.

I pretty much answered part of that. Go back and read my post about adding sharps and flats clockwise and counter clockwise.

So if you still don't understand what the point of my post was... I don't know what else to tell you. I put a ton of info about the circle of 5ths in front of you. I think you are just looking for someone to post something that just makes you all of a sudden "get it". Like I said, there's no short answer, so if you are willing to have someone take the time to write up a long response and explain the circle of 5ths to you, you should at least take the time to do some research on your own through the sites I suggested. I guarantee with just the 2 links I posted, you can pretty much have all your questions answered.

Thank you Anders and Chris! I REALLY appreciate all the effort you guys (and the rest of the instructors) put into this site. The only problem is there is SO MUCH information I find myself slightly overwhelmed quite often!!

But again thanks for all the hard work.

Cheers,
Keith

Originally Posted by: hunter1801 I guarantee with just the 2 links I posted, you can pretty much have all your questions answered.

Thank you Hunter I appreciate your help. I just felt like you were flogging me a little. With all the info on this site it's sometimes hard to sort through it all.

k