Help with Speed

Ok, I've got my alternate picking down to a reasonable speed. I can do a three octave scale in 16th notes at about 120bpm. I can pick really fast on one string but changing strings presents problems. I used to mainly use my wrist and elbow to move the pick, but today I realized that with some practice the thumb and index finger (fingers holding my pick) can also do the job. Which is better for speed? Also, are there any tips on gaining some phenomenal speed?

I would like to be able to shred in a way that makes people go "wow".

Im not going to pretend to be a shredder, in fact, I'm probably a little slower than you. However, I will impart the beliefs I have gained. The less you move you arm, the more efficiently you can play the guitar. Moving your whole forearm is a waste of movement when you only want to move such a tiny distnce. I tend to use my wrist only, which is better, but I know that some shredders just use their fingers, using a circular picking technique. Anyone care to elaborate on this technique?

Hmm... circular picking. Actually that is one term that I'm unfamiliar with.

for what I know, it seems that Steve MORSE uses it, it implies that your two fingers holding the pick do pretty much all the job, as if you were writing with a pen.

To develop speed, you have to practice REALLY SLOW, it might sound stupid, but increasing one notch per day and practicing your scales to a metronome is the best way to become a giant picker.
Also, there's another way, that shawn lane has come up with, you practice your scales with one note per string (sounds crazy but wait) it implies giant stretches, but if you play on the upper side of the neck , the stretches are smaller..., Then, you play groups of three notes (three strings) finger picking them...
If you have ever heard shawn lane, you have heard that technique, it is pretty much inspired by banjo players, and it's freakingly fast (people go wow all the time)

I'llswear on my guitar that you'll get more speed, and much much much much more endurance picking from the fore arm. I played from my wrist for 10yrs before switching my technique, and it's made all the difference in the world. It only makes sense, your forearm muscle is much bigger and more powefull then your wrist or fingers. Violin players have been using this technique for centuries, and we all know how fast they can play.
As for switching strings, try using directional crossovers, approach each string in the direction you are moving. If your playing down the neck (high E to low E) approach each str. with a up pick, and vice versa. I learned this technique off of Jimmy Bruno, you can see him explain it on his Hot Licks video No Nonsense Jazz Guitar.

when you pick in the direction of the string that you're going to hit, even if it's a scale, I think it's sweeping, or maybe I'm wrong...
Usually, sweeping is associated with Malmsteemlike arpeggios, but I have heard steve Vai refering to the type of picking you are describing as sweeping.
Or maybe he was in the middle of a 30 day fast, and wasn't making sense...

Chris, in your technique, is it your forearm moving or your biceps???

I think that's called Economy Picking.
Sweep picking is when you rake the strings quickly up or down and make it sound like you're playing each note seperately. Economy picking is staying in the same direction as you left off on the previous string. So if you were doing 3 notes per string, starting on the 6th string, you'd play down-up-down\down-up-down etc... instead of down-up-down\up-down-up

Yes it's called economy picking.

chris, it's interesting that you say that you get better speed from your forearm.. the forearm does indeed have more muscle, but you don't need much muscle to manipulate the pick. I've heard from some people that generally speaking, you want to avoid as much mass movement as possible, and the smaller amount of effort exerted will result in faster playin, as well as cut back on the risk of repetitive strain injuries

I don't think your gonna get any repetitve strain injuries playing this way, if anything its probably safer cause your gonna avoid getting carpol tunnel syndrome from using your wrist all the time. The big advantage to playing this way is the endurance factor, your gonna be able to play longer lines without having to worry about fatiguing out.

I think Chris is right. Besides you get more leverage when you pick using your whole arm as opposed to mainly using your wrist and fingers. Your picking movement should feel natural. If your shaking your wrist back and forth frantically in an effort to pick faster, chances are you're going to feel pretty uncomfortable in a short period of time and tire out quickly. I would also suggest focusing not so much on what your arm and wrist are doing and focusing more on the efficiency of which direction your pick hits the string in the course of your playing. For example, if you are moving from, let's say, the 6th string to the 5th string in the course of playing a piece of music, you can make that move with the least amount of effort by using two down strokes instead of alternate picking a down and then an up stroke. Incorporating that idea really lessens a lot of unnecessary picking movement and helps to improve your speed with very little extra exertion on your part. It's a little tricky to apply throughout at first, but once you get the hang of it, it becomes something you do unconsciously.

i've read and read and read on this topic....
i've heard most of the top "mainstream" players
talk about using one way or the other...
some use the economy picking (fingers only)
others use a solid elbow joint movement with
a rigid picking hand
others use a combination...

i think they both work...but for

"...be able to shred in a way that makes people go "wow".."

i think you should approach whichever one you're most
comforable with now...if you can pull of some kind
of speed either way...work on that method
and i agree with the previous posts..
start slow...let the speed build up itself...
and for gosh sakes!...warm up those hands!

;0)
-G

Alright guys.

If anybody's listened to Metallica's "Master of puppets" that's the prime example of Circular picking:

the riff for the chorus is:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2----3-----4-----3-----3-3--------------------------------0-1--0-1---0-1---0-1--0-1---------------------------------

Repeated with chords on the end.

You hold the pick like a pen, and go in a circular motion "up, down" on the bottom E, then "down" on the A and again, and again... when you get it up to speed, if you make a circular motion with you fingers, it helps greatly with the circular picking. This is circular picking.

Sorry - a bit confusing, but I hope it helps.

Hi Chris

I had to check-out what i was doing with my forearm and,
wrist!
Here's what i've used since the sixtys .
I use my Wrist plus the forarm!(For Speed)
Really i was useing sweeping plus rakeing back then.
Also useing my third finger for economy picking.
Back then we called sweep pinking (Rakeing)
I've played alot of years and have had no problems,
with injurys.
About the only thing that bother's me is when i,
use the Tele its so heavy that at the end of the last,
set" it pulls down on my shoulder and makes it sore,
the next day but hopefully i will get a lighter Tele,
for xmas which will fix this problem.
I'm droping hints to my family every day plus threating,
to throw myself on the floor and yell or create a scene!
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Mark

P:S Also i taught one of my students a few parts from,
(Master of the Puppets the other day i'll check that out,
about the upstoke on the first string stuff and see what i or,Kirk used on it. I know he use's alot of down-strokes,
(Metalica i mean that could injure or wear your arm out,
where he should be useing alternating picking.
(Alternating picking is better on a lot of his stuff,
plus faster!(Beating the heck out of the strings is,
not good for your tendons or wrist.Plus i think it,
used for a lot of show stuff.ect



[Edited by skee1 on 11-19-2001 at 12:31 PM]

I know what mean about the shoulder thing....I played a Les Paul for about 8 yrs.(those things have to be at least 30lbs. +). My left shoulder been giving me problems ever since!

Sounds like your usimg the forearm/wrist/sweep picking/chicken picking skee technique!!

[Edited by chris mood on 11-19-2001 at 12:37 PM]

Originally posted by James
I would like to be able to shred in a way that makes people go "wow".

Most people these days aren't going to care. You start shredding, and they'll go, "So what. Get outta the 80s man."

Do finger taps-that always goes ever well !!!

Yea Chris (chicken picken ha ha yea i can!)
Yeah they would rather hear the taps today,
they will eat it up.

Master of the Puppets(below Good excercise PART 1)

[CODE]
A|----2-----3------4-----3-------2-2--|
E|0-1---0-1---0-1----0-1---0-1--------|

I'm fairly sure kirk used down strokes.
I teach it with alternate picking->save your tendons!
or beat the heck out of it...............

[CODE/]
Mark

[Edited by skee1 on 11-19-2001 at 03:39 PM]

Again, I think out of the box... Try using one finger.. The movement is like scratching your chin... Only my knuckel moves.. Gee-whiz, talk about economy! My take on speed, or the illusion of speed, is that alot of people want to run the hundred yard dash up and down quickly.. If done with passion and dynamics, we can all say wow! However, the best guitarists are easily recognized by one note, or by their tone..

"If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck--Odds are it's a duck." Danny Partridge

What's shredding anyway?

I agree Booth421

Mark