pentatonics again.

today my teacher told me that the diference between a major pentatonic and a minor pentatonic was where you start. he showed me this:

||----------------------------1-4----|
||------------------------1-4--------|
||-------------------1-3-------------|
||--------------1-3------------------|
||---------1-3-----------------------|
||----1-4----------------------------|

||---------------------------1-4-----|
||----------------------1-4----------|
||------------------1-3--------------|
||-------------1-3-------------------|
||--------1-3------------------------|
||------4----------------------------|

but im not 100% sure what he meant or the deeper meaning of this. he did tell me we would get to it in time but i hate waiting when i got a fire under me.
could one of you geniuses please help.

If what he is saying is what I think he is saying.. it goes like this (I'm picking A penta-minor and penta-major to make it easier):

A pentatonic minor:
||----------------------------5-8----|
||------------------------5-8--------|
||-------------------5-7-------------|
||--------------5-7------------------|
||---------5-7-----------------------|
||----5-8----------------------------|


A pentatonic major:
||----------------------------2-5----|
||------------------------2-5--------|
||-------------------2-4-------------|
||--------------2-4------------------|
||---------2-4-----------------------|
||----5------------------------------|

It's the same shape.. but you are starting on the second interval of the shape.. just remember though that you have to start with an A for it to be a scale based on A.

The example you had is...

F pentatonic minor:
||----------------------------1-4----|
||------------------------1-4--------|
||-------------------1-3-------------|
||--------------1-3------------------|
||---------1-3-----------------------|
||----1-4----------------------------|

G# pentatonic major:
||---------------------------1-4-----|
||----------------------1-4----------|
||------------------1-3--------------|
||-------------1-3-------------------|
||--------1-3------------------------|
||------4----------------------------|

At least this is what I think is correct.. I never really learnt what a pentatonic major scale was.. I've never needed it or used it.. :)

Originally Posted by: BrokenJeratoday my teacher told me that the diference between a major pentatonic and a minor pentatonic was where you start.

Depending upon exactly what he meant, he is sort of right about "where you start". A better way of thinking about it is that, it depends upon which one of those notes is the root note (the "one" of the scale - in other words, your reference point). This is because you could "start" on the third note of the scale, or the fourth, or fifth, and so on. You don't have to start playing on the one (root note).

Consider, he gave you a group of notes as a pattern on the fretboard. With one exception (the low F), it is the exact same group of notes or pattern. The only way to know if you are playing major or minor is to know which one of those notes you are going to think of as the root note. Once you pick which one is the root note, then and only then will you know if you are thinking of that group of notes or pattern as a major or minor pentatonic.

I did a whole tutorial on how to properly visualize and conceptualize the pentatonic scale:
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=296

Look at that tutorial and then PM if you have more questions.

Good post light487! One clarification. In contrasting F pentatonic minor, the relative major is better notated as A-flat instead of G-sharp.

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelGood post light487! One clarification. In contrasting F pentatonic minor, the relative major is better notated as A-flat instead of G-sharp.

Haha! :)

Well I wasn't even sure my post was correct.. It was more of a practise exercise in music theory for me than just a straight out reply.. :) It seemed right based on what I knew about modes.. but yeh.. I'm just glad I was right about it.. whether or not it's better notated as G# or A-flat is just semantics. :)

I'll never really understand why it's better to notate as flat instead of sharp in some cases.. the only time I've understood it is when the scale has two of the same "letter" in it.. like if the scale had A, A# then C, I would write the A# as B-flat. Anyway, it's not really important I guess, as long as everyone understands what you have said or written on the music etc

Originally Posted by: light487Well I wasn't even sure my post was correct.. It was more of a practise exercise in music theory for me than just a straight out reply.. :) [/quote]
Good practice. And you got it right! Good for you. :)
[QUOTE=light487]I'll never really understand why it's better to notate as flat instead of sharp in some cases.. the only time I've understood it is when the scale has two of the same "letter" in it.. like if the scale had A, A# then C, I would write the A# as B-flat. Anyway, it's not really important I guess, as long as everyone understands what you have said or written on the music etc

You've got the idea here, too. To avoid "two of the same letter being used."

It is important when it can help make things easier to understand or clarify the issue involved. In this case, the pentatonic scale "avoids" certain notes, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

F minor: F, G, A-flat, B-flat, C, D-flat, E-flat
F minor pentatonic: F, A-flat, B-flat, C, E-flat

So, the second note of the scale (G) is one of the diatonic notes that pentatonic avoids. But it is part of the parent scale (the scale from which it originates), so it is still "there" but being avoided in order to create the derivative pentatonic scale. We use A-flat instead of G-sharp because G is already taken.

Look at it the other way around for another reason.

G-sharp major: G-sharp, A-sharp, B-sharp, C-sharp, D-sharp, E-sharp, F-double sharp!

... versus using ...

A-flat major: A flat, B-flat, C, D-flat, E-flat, F, G

Both are right. But, which one looks easier to deal with?

learn the intervals of the major scale then learn the intervals of the minor pentatonic, ur teacher was half right, he was thinking shapes and not theortically or he knows but thought u couldnt handle the knowledge behind it. i know being a teacher myself. lol. you could instead of playing the first pentatonic shape play the second position instead of the first. this will give you the major pentatonic. but not the necessesary understanding as to why they sound different. thats where a bit of trusty music thoery comes into play my lil amigo. (modded tenacious d quote). with the minor pentatonic u have the

1 m3 4 5 flat7.

with the major pentatonic you have the

1 2 3 5 6

so compared to the minor pentatonic you have the root a major 2nd(tone gap) major third (two tone gap) perfect 5th. (3 tones 1 semi tone gap) and a major 6th. (4 tones one semi tone gap) gaps being all fromm the root. this is what makes up a major pentatonic. the main note that changes it from major to minor is the 3rd. the major 3rd to the ear dicatates its happy. and the minor 3rd dicates its sad. once u know where all the major and minor 3rds are from where ever ur root is. ull be able to create a sad or happy vibe.

Originally Posted by: CSchlegelGood post light487! One clarification. In contrasting F pentatonic minor, the relative major is better notated as A-flat instead of G-sharp.

Probably a dumb question, but why?
If Gsharp=Aflat....what is the difference with respect to how its notated?

The music theory behind major and minor pentatonic scales can be a little confusing. The fretboard patterns for both guitar scales are the same. Pentatonic pattern one in the open position can produce either an E minor or G major tonality. It all depends on what the scale is being played over.

If you're playing over an E minor chord, or chord progression that revolves around an E minor chord, then your ear will hear the E note in the scale as the root. The E note is the first note in pentatonic scale pattern one. When the other scale tones draw to and resolve on the first note in this pattern it produces a minor sound. This minor pentatonic application can be heard in the song "Susie Q" by Creedence Clearwater Revival, "Back in Black" by AC/DC, and many others.

If you're playing over an G major chord, or chord progression that revolves around a G major chord, then your ear will hear the G note in the scale as the root. The G note is the second note in pentatonic scale pattern one. When the other scale tones draw to and resolve on the second note in this pattern it produces a major sound. This major pentatonic application can be heard in the song "Wish You Were Here" by Pink Floyd, "Honky Tonk Women" by The Rolling Stones, and many others.

So both major and minor pentatonic guitar scales are based on the same fretboard patterns. The major/minor tonality is caused by which scale tone is functioning as the root. And the root is determined by what chord or chord progression you're playing the scale over. I hope this free guitar theory lesson clears up the difference behind the two pentatonic sounds.

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The way I've always looked at it is this: The notes of the pentatonic major are the same as the notes of the relative minor's pentatonic minor scale except you start at the 2nd degree. for example, to play the A pent maj scale, play the F#(relative minor of A) pent minor scale starting with the 2nd note (A).