help with improvisation/soloing

Well, whenever I listen to a guitar solo in a song its really just the guitar and the drums, not the guitar and the other guitar playing the chord progression in the background. See, I can really only solo while the other persons playing otherwise it doesn't quite sound right. My method of doing so I get to the point and we mutually decide to and I just go pretty much. I listen to my friend play the chord progression and change keys when he changes chords. For example, if I'm playing my song that goes, E->B->Db->A i would change to the B scale on the A string (starting on 14th fret). Then Db would be on E string and A would start on 12th fret A string and if you went through the scales they all really pretty much stay within the E scale. With Db though don't use the 12th fret E pentatonic do the 7th fret A string scale. Anyways that works, but if you just take him off it really doesn't sound good, it doesn't flow with the song basically. Whenever I listen to bands there solos always flow with the songs. Another problem is keeping the mood of the song in my solo. Can anybody help me?

When I soloing, I stay in the key of the song, match my licks to the tempo or beat of the song, and introduce one or two melodic riffs that go off in a direction, yet stay within the "context" of the song. It's tough to nail each and every time, and I often don't do it or "nail" it.

Also, in soloing, I always to try and keep in mind that listeners don't wanna hear all the scales I know. I remember reading somewhere that you wanna make the guitar "talk", and I always try and remember to do this. Also, when soloing/improvising, I always try and string together small runs or riffs that, when added-up, are a complete solo. It's alot to remember, but worthwhile when it all comes together.

Improvisation/soloing or jamming with another guitarist or guitar players, no matter what their skill level, is a great learning tool about your playing and gives you new ideas, inspiration, and approaches to playing.

Well, my problem is I stay within the pentatonic or any other scale (I don't know a lot) but when I do that I get a jazzy sound. I think it would help if I had a better "library" of scales. Can anybody give me some scale names that they know of that I can look up or ask my guitar teacher, I have a lesson today.

learn the modes of the diatonic scale. Modal theory would help a lot probably. I think what you are doing is called modulation.

Ok I know what modes are. I know what the diatonic scale is, just don't know it(looking it up now). So how will this help me?

Well it will help you understand keys which is a huge part of improvisation.

The diatonic scale is the standard major scale consisting of whole and half steps, WWHWWWH (W= whole step H=half step).

The different modes just start on a different root note within that scale so it gives it a different feel, since the intervals are played differently (in a different order).

So Ionian (name of the mode) is the Major scale WWHWWWH and then a seperate mode of that scale would be Mixolydian (for example, there are 7 modes) which starts on the fifth note of Ionian and it looks like this:

WWHWWHW

see how that works it just shifts the root and there are the same amount of the same intervals just shifted over. Mixolydian is also a major scale because it doesn't have a flat third. There is a mode for every note (interval) in the scale.

This is covered very well in the theory section (there should be stickies for most of it in the theory forum). I could get into more detail but people who know a lot more than me have already written it so why waste the time.

Plus anyone feel free to correct me if I said something wrong, I am pretty sure I am right though.

There is a lot more too, but just memorizing those intervals is what you probably want to start with.

There is a great tutorial by ace on this I believe and a few other instructors have done similar tutorials all of which are great.

What i would recommend is finding someone very knowledgeable you can actually talk to. I think I would have gotten through this stuff much faster if I could have just kept bouncing questions off someone instead of having to read a bunch then go find a bunch more to read until I actually understood it.

The nature of music theory (at least in the beginning) seems to be every questioned answered leads to ten more questions.

It is also important though to not get too caught up in theory, it can help a lot but building an ear and just playing till it makes sense is more valuable in my opinion. Theory can help to bridge certain gaps until your playing and ear get to where you can just play and not think about it. I still use it all the time when composing and soloing.

Something else...

Depending on what you are playing, sometimes a few well placed pull off's and hammer ons with some melody are a lot better than five minutes of shredding up and down the pentatonic scales.

Originally Posted by: "TexAxe"When I soloing, I stay in the key of the song, match my licks to the tempo or beat of the song, and introduce one or two melodic riffs that go off in a direction, yet stay within the "context" of the song.

Just to make things clearer I've basically just expanded on what TexAxe has said, in my own ways of course.

Playing solo (without another guitar playing rhythm), for me at least, requires me to find the specific melody of the song. Usually the notes of the melody are whatever the singer is singing. Anyway.. once you have a clear understanding of what the melody is, even without the CD or other person playing, then you should be able to play it without it feeling awkward. The melody itself may only be 4 or 5 notes.. the rest of the solo is basically just variations on the melody and embellishments to add a unique flavour to your solo. When I get stuck or lose my train of thought, the first thing I do is go back to the basic melody and play that once or twice through without any embellishments or variations. That puts me back on track, and I am able to get back into the groove. If you're just "noodling" around on a pentatonic minor scale or other scale, then that is possibly why you feel awkward when you play it.

Like TexAxe says.. you need to stay in the key of the WHOLE song, not just the current measure of music. Sometimes the key will change in a song.. but not that often and it's usually only once.. or goes back and forth between 2 keys. Obviously though, the longer the piece of music, the more chances for a key change. From what you described of the rhythm, it sounds like it is in the key of E Major. So you could centre the melody around the 4th or 5th note in the EMaj scale, or for a more depressing/sad feel you could go for centring everything around the 6th note. Basically.. you still play the same notes as in the EMaj scale but you tend to always start and/or stop on another note you are trying to emphasise.. the one that isn't the root note but sounds 'right' to you.

This note will be the root note of the "mode" that you construct your melody in. So let's say we decided to centre everything around the 6th note of the scale, then that sixth note would be C# and we would be playing in the C# Aeolian mode.. which could also be referred to as the the C# minor scale. Playing the melody around this 6th note does not mean just playing the EMaj scale notes starting from and ending on the C#.. it means working out a repeatable set of complimentary notes. Basic melodies are generally between 3 and 5 notes long.. but the way you play those notes is what really matters. Just as TexAxe has said, you need to "introduce one or two melodic riffs that go off in a direction, yet stay within the "context" of the song". These will be the backbone of the solo.. the melodies that you create need to be just as "cool" without the rest of the music.

EDIT: Just one last thing I forgot to mention.. Try to use 2 or more modes during your solo... Like.. let's say we decided to base the melody around the C# minor scale (Aeoilian mode) or the C# minor pentatonic scale. At some point during the solo you want to spice it up a bit, so you play a section of the solo using the EMaj scale (Ionian mode). This will make the constant, limited choice of strong pentatonic notes sound even more powerful when you return to them. Or you could do the complete opposite.. or whatever you want that sounds right to you.

Haha, very long post. Well I sort of get what your saying. I've always tried finding melodies so I could solo, but I sucked at it. But I'm getting better with my ear, and its especially easy for me because I play everything in EMaj or EMin because my automatic note when I sing is an E(meaning if I hum a note it will be E automatically). It's definitely getting easier. But see, I've asked my guitar teacher and my friends guitar teacher (very much into theory he is, o.O yoda lol) and they both said it was really more of a jazz thing. And since I'm more of a Rock 'n' Roll/Alternative Rock guy, I don't see how modes would help me. Any comments?

modes are only for jazz??????????? (I removed a few ?'s :) haha) pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffft!

God only knows where they pulled that one from.. modes are just as important in EVERY style of music. It's not about know 7 different scales, one for each style of music.. it's about knowing your way around your instrument.. whether you are playing the harmonica, the guitar, piano or singing.. modes play a huge role in everything to do with music. Once the music is written, though it's not entirely set in stone, you don't have to worry any more about anything except for reading the notes off the sheet music. However, we are talking about improvisation here...

When I solo, I don't decide all of a sudden that I am going to play in a particular mode.. it just happens.. you find a note that sounds 'right' but it isn't the root note. That note is the root of the mode... You only need to know that it is "such and such" a mode so you can tell whoever it is you are playing with what you are doing.. or so that you can remember next time.. or even better.. so that you understand what you are doing and can then add it to your own personal style.

Every single bit of basic music theory is important to every single musician.. that's not the say that every single musician needs to know music theory.. I certainly didn't need it for the first 15 years.. but it really does help you understand what you are doing, how to repeat what you are doing, and how to "change it up". If all you ever do is learn the basic "intervals" stuff, you will be leaps and bounds ahead of people who don't know it and having been playing, on average, for the same amount of time as you.

Well, it's not like they said it was only for jazz. They just said it was more of a jazz thing. I'll just go read the post on modes.

Originally Posted by: light487modes are only for jazz??????????? (I removed a few ?'s :) haha) pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffft!

God only knows where they pulled that one from.. modes are just as important in EVERY style of music. It's not about know 7 different scales, one for each style of music.. it's about knowing your way around your instrument.. whether you are playing the harmonica, the guitar, piano or singing.. modes play a huge role in everything to do with music. Once the music is written, though it's not entirely set in stone, you don't have to worry any more about anything except for reading the notes off the sheet music. However, we are talking about improvisation here...

When I solo, I don't decide all of a sudden that I am going to play in a particular mode.. it just happens.. you find a note that sounds 'right' but it isn't the root note. That note is the root of the mode... You only need to know that it is "such and such" a mode so you can tell whoever it is you are playing with what you are doing.. or so that you can remember next time.. or even better.. so that you understand what you are doing and can then add it to your own personal style.

Every single bit of basic music theory is important to every single musician.. that's not the say that every single musician needs to know music theory.. I certainly didn't need it for the first 15 years.. but it really does help you understand what you are doing, how to repeat what you are doing, and how to "change it up". If all you ever do is learn the basic "intervals" stuff, you will be leaps and bounds ahead of people who don't know it and having been playing, on average, for the same amount of time as you.

Right On! Oh sorry, I guess they don't say that now days!

"Right On!" they do still say it 'cause you just said it then.. ha! :)

I was trying to show my dad a few things on guitar yesterday and what I realised was that "learning scales" and practising your scales is not about playing scales.. it's about putting the music theory, which you are learning at the same time, into practice. These modes and scales and all that stuff needs to be somehow practised so that we can understand the theory/art/craft of playing better... it's not about the scales themselves but what is underneath them, the foundation, that matters.

Ok, well the posts in the music theory section about modes doesn't really help me, so does anyone have another link, or personally wants to teach me(lol)?

Good questions and answers. As you can see there are many options. For me I find it helpful to do a couple things:

1) Pick one option an "Play" with it.
2) Train your ears to hear what a certain scale sounds like over a chord.
3) Determine how you want to sound with the ear training from #2.
4) Experiment with polyrhythms in your ideas. It's not just about note selection but also your rhythmic approach in your ideas.

There are no quick fixes for your question. Improvisation is a lifetime of experiences and even the best never reach a place where they don't want to do more.