america under attack !!!!

Zeplin: "I know that people like you think that it's ok for the palestinian to kill jews" When did i say that? I think you are being paranoid. Murder is wrong nomatter the race of the victim. and my whole arguement is that there are more palastinain victims.
As the the two soldiers who died out of the whole intifada, around 130 died, nearly all of which were arab, 3000 palastinains were injured...now tell me how terrible the death of these two sodliers were when all of these arabs were citizens. lets face facts, more palastinains die than israilies. this is my whole point! and it's accepted by the government as fact of life, when its a disaster!

Oh yeah, the two soldier weren't killed by palastinian police, just watch the clip through. There was a large metal door to the police station, where the police were protecting the soldeirs which was pushed down by and angry mob of palastinain (lets face it, they had just seen their kids get shot by the poeple the police were harbouring), they then went in. you can see them open the door to a room on the 1st floor (the one above ground floor,i know there's adifference in defintion of what a floor is between english and american). The palastinains crouch to hit and kick someone on the floor, then he was thrown out of window, and kicked to death.
I watched the whole thing in horor like every else, except i kept a tab on the number of fatalities.

educatedfilm, zepplin, this debate is going nowhere. I don't want to sound like any kind of authority here, but the problem is that Americans will never fully understand what it's like to live in Israel or Afghanistan or Iran or whatever, and the people there will never fully understand Americans. You know what keeps this mess going? Stereotypes and fear, a deadly combo. I went to a discussion last night at my university here about the events and implications of Tuesday, and while there was a genuine saddness and disbelief, some people just kept debating over the past and U.S. policy in the middle-east and who to point fingers at. It was useless. The U.S. will always have an interest in that region as long as they have oil that we need. The only useful tool we can use now is understanding. Hatred and anger and misunderstanding are destructive feelings, and they can and will be self-destructive. I think there is a lot going on that no one knows about, and to think we can completely understand the situation on both sides and give solutions just like that is arrogant and deceiving. I would like to ask you guys to stop this endless circle of debate. We are here because we love music. Let's remember that.

yeah anyone here likes queen's night at the opera?
just got it on a cd and it is a one kicking ass album :)

Educatedfilm
I'm in the uk, and about an hour ago i obsorved teh three minute silence... You sound like a pretty nice guy Mark... i went to your site by the way, you sound like a modest guitar guru (been playing since '65, my god...has it been good fun over the years, or is my dad right in saying "it;s a waste of time in the end").
I would advise reading up on your history and your politics (you'll see why so many americans have become anti american, let alone the rest of the world...). I'll accept your comment about hurting poeple's feeling, i'll tread softly, but some things do need to be said

Now you want to get your facts right about when i started,
playing unless it was a typo on the about me page.
Educatedfilm<-Man thats along word i think your real,
first name would be better unless its longer.(grin)
Anyway it was the latter part of 1961 when i started playing guitar.No its not a waste of time in the end.
Only if you have problems with your health ect.
Which i don't, (knock on wood) i'm on the road state wide,
plus out, of my state 3 nites aweek, plus sometimes, playing afternoon, events with my band.
Really i'm lucky about being able to play guitar at an older,age as much as i do, but most of my family were still,
playing music at ages 85 to 98 pro's ect.
I feal great plus feel just like i did at 29 health wise.
In fact i can play faster plus smoother now at 61 then i,
did when i was only 29.I am the oldest player in my band,
but don't have grey hair like the drummer age 49 or the,
keyboard player age 42 bass player age 30.
Anymore i use my son alot with me on guitar and vocals,
he's 23 and his wife would rather have him on the road,
with me so he won't go back to to his old metal bands,
plus the head-banger groups he used to have because of,
drugs.I do have a hard-drink twice a year .
Other wise its Diet Pepsi with the whole band.Plus,
we can all get high just playing music.
Enough about me: Now on history i think i know my history,
plus Politics to damm well sometimes.
I have a thing that i go buy which i have stuck too for years.
I NEVER mix Politics with friends plus the band or family
members i think everyone has thier own views and thats thier right to belive thier way this is a free country in the usa and you have the right to belive or say what you want.
I'm thinking some where you ask me somewhere in a question ,
about Black Poeple or something to do with thier rights.ect
I'm proud to say that in my Town i was the first person,
to bring into my band a Black Drummer that could really,
kick ass on the drums.Plus i took him into a local club,
which was at that time a rock&roll club.
I encountered a hell of lot of static from the poeple,
in the club plus the owner's.
Which really we were the first rock band in our town ,so
it was either let him play or don't make all that money,
we were makeing for the club before we hired him.
I won the fight he played with us a few year's then joined,
the army in the later 60s and got killed in vietnam .
He was wounded the first time out then went back in again,
the 2d time and was killed.I miss him as a drummer plus,
as one of the best friends i ever had.
I forgot to mention i used to play alot at an all black blues,club accross town and thats how i met him.
I met alot of great blues guitarests there plus learned,
alot from them.So yes i'm COLOR-BLIND when it comes to,
the Race's i have my folks to thank for that.
Anyway i also teach guitar 3 days aweek plus sometime's,
work on computer's plus i like playing RPG games on the,
pc like diable2.....................


Mark



Mark

You've gone up alot in estimations now you've told me that... i do have a thing about civil/ human rights, i do like to think we're equals not competetors, competing for power over each other.
Zeplin: I think i will end this debate, nice talking to you. I've never talked some with veiws like you, which is refreshing... i've only really talked to Libral and left windg isrealies before... Thank you for an intresting debate.

There is no doubt that we over here in the U.S., and around the world, are feeling strong mixed emotions over the tragedy at hand. We must plan our course of action in a well thought out and strategic manner, situations around the globe are to delicate to act hastily, we do not want to enter WW3. We have already lost tens of thousands of lives, lets not make it hundreds of thousands. This is what they would have wanted.
I say give the president and his advisors some time to deliberate, let the investigation run its course and lets find out exactly who is responsible before declaring war on a whole nationality. The governments harboring these terrorists may turn them over in fear of U.S. sanctions and attacks.
We must also remember that these people are cowards and fight in a cowardly way. Hijacked planes could turn into germ warfare and nuclear destruction if we try to strongarm them. It is clear that these people have no value for human life.
To Zeppelin and the others I say; despite all our differences we all have one thing in common, we all live on the only planet capable of containing human life. If we do not learn how to cohabitate together the end result will be destruction of all mankind. -GIVE PEACE A CHANCE-

Every day 6000 africans die due to AIDs alone. Thats the equivilent of 30 fully loaded 747's crashing every day for those of you who cant do math. This has been going on for decades and how many of you knew that? Probably none. You ppl are all blind to what is wrong on earth. The trajedy isnt a bunch of millionares getting pasted by a 737 its the deaths that happen every second that you peeps dont know or care about! You want to help the earth out dont send flowers, send help.

I used to talk just like you...unfortunatly i've found nomatter how legitamate (and sometimes out right obvious) your point is poeple will just get upset and not listen, and the sad thing is that the dumbest poeple talk back loudest (these poeple are imposible to talk to, anything you say you get back a sentance staring with "NO!..").
The number of deaths due to aids are different to the deaths due to terrorism, in the latter case everyone looks for someone to blame, while with aids it seen just as a disease an a part of life (i dont agree with this)...
I do agree about that the poeple in the world trade center are no more important than any one else, the poeple who die in Iraq are victims or terrorisim, but were told how their leader is evil and upto no good, and the sick thing is the poeple in government say they care for the Iraqi poeple. THey know they can't get suddam, they've tried in the gulf and they've failed, so they bomb innocent iraqis. End of the day both are innocent humans, and americans are gonna mourn the death of americans more than anyone else, simply as it's so close to home...
I have a feeling they'll do the same to the afgans as they did to the Iraqis.

"You want to help the earth out dont send flowers, send help"
More importantly relive them of their debts so they can stand on their own feet.(this especially aplies to Brazil a country with tremendous resources which could become a great country, but they're being anochored and being kept poor).


[Edited by educatedfilm on 09-14-2001 at 05:59 PM]

Chris, i know you hope for the same as i do, but if you listen to the president, you'll see he's on a war footing, there are destroyers in the gulf alredy, and they are calling up 5000 reserves. Does that sound like a president who wishes to solve this peacfully?

One last thing... There's nothing wrong with having gray hair god dammit *grins*, i'm 18 and i'm going grey, so i'll prbably have a head full of white hair *reads it through again...laughs*. Still i'm lucky not to go bald (nothing wrong with going blad, i'm just attached to my hair *grins*)

At least they have aressted some of them bastards they will pay for what they have done its only a matter of time before bush plans a strike we have always had terrorism and its about time they put a stop to some of it what really pissed me of was on a news story these afghans were rejoicing and celebrating the terrible attack on america

Well...
(here we go...)

First off, let me say that I hope all of you, your families, and friends are intact, and doing well.

Second, I think we Americans need to take a good look at ourselves. What happened was undescribably horrible, and nobody deserved that. On the other hand, their were resons why it happened. We had better to be sure that whatever action we take not only finds and punishes those responsible, but does something to addres the resons why terrorism occures in the first place. Otherwise, this will happen again and again as new terrorist groups form. We also have to keep in mind that Arabs in the US are suddenly finding themselves facing a whole new world of persicution- and that isn't right. First off, on the human level it's wrong, secondly it gives the very people we try to fight ammunition when they go to recrute new young men to go off and die.

From "Too Many Puppies," Primus:

Too many puppies with guns in their hands
Too many puppies in foregn lands are dressed up sharp in suits of green and placed upon the war machine
Too many puppies are just like me
Too many puppies are afraid to see the visions of the past brought to life again
Too many puppies, too many dead men

Originally posted by BadHorsie
But as far as what you said Joseph. You don't think the President's trigger happy? "We will hunt down the people responsible for this and punish them and those who harbor them".

Of course of the president and his team will retaliate by all means necessary, but I hate to think that the past will repeat itself. Overall, the president has taken a very strong yet methodical approach so far. All we can do is wait and see, without jumping to conclusions.


However, For all I know, I could have been sharing a cup of coffee with these bastards. The hijackers aboard United Airlines Flight 175, which also slammed into the World Trade Center, were pilot Marwan Al Shehhi, who lived in Hollywood, Florida and was in the United States on a visa. The others were Fayez Ahmed, Mohald Alshehri, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, all of whom had addresses in Delray Beach, Florida.

You have no idea who you're associating with in this world, and that's scary. These terrorists, they were probably just like everyone else, very polite, holding doors open for old ladies at airports all over the country. The type of guys who could probably talk your ear off about how the weather has changed over the past few months. And it's so sad to know that it could have been just about anyone in this world. It really makes my stomach turn to think that these guys lived so close to me, for all I know they could have passed me by on my morning walks. And You'll drive yourself crazy trying to figure out if you saw someone very suspicious over the past few years, someone who's capable of such a crime. You're never really safe, not even in Florida. Which makes you want to buy a gun!


-Joseph

Raskolnikov: i was gonna say that! I'm glad that there are intelligent poeple out there. Unfourtnatly there are alot of trigger happy morons, and these poeple are morons (make no mistake) they beat up a siek guy, becasue he had a beard and a turban, cos they though he was a talaban.
There are reasons to why poeple do this (although the media is quick to call it religous fanaticism), and it's not right taht they do it, and it's also not right to put through conditions that drive them to it.
I hope more american wake up to the fact that the american government forign policy isn't squeeky clean.
(Raskolnikov... wasn't the name of the guy who killed the old money lender in the book "crime and punishment"?)

"The government is supposed to watch out for this sort of thing. That's what profiling is for"
Modern encryption is IMPOSSIBLE to crack (there is a mathmatical proof to this... ask steveP he's knowlegable in these things), so if the whole thing was organised by a couple of encyrpted messages no blame should fall on the intelligence. About keeping tabs on poeple ,they already do this for a great number of poeple, but lets face it you cant keep tabs on 250 million poeple!

These reserves being called up, who the hell are we going to fight? It's great that we've arrested some people, but now it seems our president is, as previously mentioned, "trigger happy." When someone, or anything reacts with emotions flaring,, it only makes it worse. I think as a country we need to calm down, get our head's straight again. I want to punish these people as much as anyone else, but i think as a nation, we need to regain our ability to think clearly again, and not through our emotions, which is what Bush is doing right now.


The thing i find the weirdest however, is that we've been stepping up our airport security enorously over the years, and yet four times airplanes was hijacked. This is the thing that puzzles me the most.


This is the worst terrorist attack in history. People should be punished. But we can't act through anger and vengeance, we need, a clearer mind than ever.

Bless your heart Zep_rules!
I'm afraid though it's very likely the US will go to war. We only hope it not the afagan government, as we've seen them defeat a world super power before... the President is talking him self into a corner, and building up momentum for attack. Who are we attacking (remember the US and Uk both attack, "shoulder to shoulder")? The enemy is largly an invisible one... if you bomb afganistan, and really you do nothing to the group that did this, and you upset the afgans, you'll now have 2 groups against you. Not to mention that thousands of innocent poeple will die just because the president has promised retaliation.

This is my last words on this subject!
Think about this its been said once but not this way.


1.Bush#1
2.Bush#2

Answer=OIL OIL OIL
Plus Politics.


Figure?

p:s And here we go again!(end of story)
Mark


[Edited by skee1 on 09-15-2001 at 02:16 PM]

By the way did any one noticed it goes right like nostadamus said?
quite scarry ****