america under attack !!!!

It's kinda depresing not talking to you all about guitars... zep_rules your right this is just a guitar forum, i dont know how i got dragged into the subject...
I've been saying "what you reap is what you sow" about what the government has been upto for the a long while now but when it came, it really made my stomach churn...

I can only hope this ends peacfully, and we return to our normal lives, and that this doesn't escalate, and we dont all start blaming poeple when we dont know anything...this is the last you'll hear from me on the subject. (sorry if i upset you in any way Led-Zep).

FenderBlues, I thought Tony Blair made a great statement when he said that this attack wasn't just against America, but against the whole free world.

In order to get through this and find those responsible, we're all going to have to stand together.

Thanks for your support man.

Zeppelin, I just want to let you know that I'm in total support of Israel, and I believe that the US must continue to support you guys in every way.

You know, I woke up the other morning just like any other day, at 6am on the dot, and I wasn't in the best of moods. I was really ticked off at something that transpired this past week, and the coffee I made was really thick. Just like anyone, I had my reasons for feeling down, and frustrated, and just really tired of trying to find common ground. And then a simple thing like the newspaper being delivered right to my front door, no not in the bushes, not in the tree, but right in front of my door, that put a smile on my face. As I'm flipping through the pages, I took a sip of my (thick coffee) and everything just didn't taste so bad after that.

I found a way to re-charge my batteries, just from that one simplistic moment of not having to climb my palm tree to read that darn paper.

I don't have the ability to hate, or to hold a grudge at someone else for making my day, or my year a little less than pleasant for that matter, and for those who allow feelings of hatred to eat up at their soul, it makes them wonder what they are living for after all.

This act of terrorism that this world has experienced was nothing more tha a confident suicide mission, led by people who no longer valued their lives compared to a mission of destruction.

It's sad to see that in this world, retribution is #1 for a lot of people, that's their way in finding peace with themselves. I've said it once before and I'll say it again, this world is just fine, but it's certain people that make it bad for others.

Watching the people in foreign countries celebrate because of the destruction that we have faced this morning, it really does scare you, it scares you that there are actually people in this world (normal hard working citizens) who truly allow hatred to rule their lives and take over theor better judgement. Despite the beef that people have with the authority of this country, that should not hold any ground with the welfare of the common citizens of this world, people that are no different than any other.
We don't know any of these somewhat 40,000 people who are presumably dead, but still it's very easy to put ourselves in their position, or in the position of their loved ones. The worst feeling that one can imagine is having someone you love taken away from you without any reasons, and without anything that you can do about it.

Terrorism exists in this world, and people do have evil in intentions. That's something that we have forgotten for quite sometime, due to scandal, and whatever distractions the media has been focusing on over the past several years.
But it doesn't make sence to cast the next stone, there's no point in pointing the finger where it doesn't belong. It's best to try and preserve whatever is left of courgage, trust and faith when it comes to the people in this country. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be over cautious in all situations.


I'm tired of trying to make sence of this situation, because I can't, and I can no longer argue with how the authorites should have seen this coming, because they couldn't possibly have. Sooner or later, in perfect world, something like this is bound to slip beneath the cracks. And as a strong country, we have to pull together and pick up the pieces to make sure that we're prepared so nothing like this will happen again.


Although it's hard to admit, something like this makes us stronger as a nation, it keeps us aware that evil that lurks behind every corner, and that we have to be careful at all costs.


I can't tell people how to think, and millions of hours in therapy doesn't always cure a lost soul. There are some people in this world who will never change, some people who live and die by revenge, and casting the final stone even if it costs them their lives.


And we will never escape such terrorism, because evil intentions will forever exist in this world. But we have to learn to protect ourselves much more securely, and with more confidence. We have to learn not to second guess ourselves, no matter how it makes ius look, because we just might be saving our lives in the end.


At a moment like this, it's important to be thankful for what you still have, be thankful for your family snd friends, and that you're able to enjoy another thanksgiving dinner with them, because life is so precious, and it vcan be taken away within the blink of an eye.


I've spoken to all different types of people, including my previous girlfriend who cuurently lives in Massachusettes, (who frequently travels to New York to visit her friends. As I spoke with her, I didn't care about what we've been through in the past, or how things ended, I just wanted to hear her voice, and to know that she was okay. Just like everyone else, she was shaken up, but with all of the crap we've been through, all of the fights, she was just glad to hear from me.


Things like this, they gives you a heightened perspective on life and all of the people that surround you, it shows you that the arguments that you couln;t resolve one weekemnd don't really mean a thing. All that matters us that you keep in touch with those ou love and truly care about in this world, and that you never hesitate to say what's truly in your heart.


This is how I feel, and the only thing that makes sense to me after all of this endless tragedy is that love is the most precious feeling that one could imagine. Before even after we're long and gone, it never really leaves our soul. We can do a good job in hiding it, or convincing others that it's gone, but it never truly leaves us.
My prayers go out to families of all of the victims of this horrible crash, I haven't cried in years, but this is the one thing that has broken me down. And I guess sometimes, you're afraid that once you start, you just wont be able to stop. It'ds very true, but I'm only human, and when words can't express how you feel, sometimes you just hwve no choice.

Say a prayer guys, and hold onto those you truly love.


Sorry if this was enormously long, but there isn't much more to talk about at this point. After waching this nonstop for the past two days, it really rips you in half.

-Joseph

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the organisor of this crime to be brought to justice, but it does need to be the correct person, and the response needs to be harsh enough to prevent to the person or group from being able to repeat Tuesday's disaster, but not so harsh that it affects other innocent people. I think Bush has been sensible in not attacking anything yet and hope he continues to think before he acts.

educatedfilm: you said the taliban had said they would extradite bin laden if he was shown to be guilty, in fact it was just one member of the taliban who said this, and as with US politics the taliban is made up of a great many people with differing views. and this statement was later retracted and denied.

If it is Bin Laden that did this, then maybe America should offer support to the Afghan government (the taliban) to remove him from the country, and if they don't accept the support then they should then consider helping an opposition party form in Afghanistan. At the moment there is no opposition as the Taliban has prevented other parties from existing, as you may have heard Bin Laden is suspected of involvment in the assination of the Afghan opposition leader.

Nice of you to jion steve. When i put down my comment on the talaban handing over thingy, i hadn't heard that it had been retracted. Can i ask who retracted this? Wasn't the guy that made the original statement quite high ranking? (Possiblity of it still standing?)
"America should offer support to the Afghan government (the taliban) to remove him from the country, and if they don't accept the support then they should then consider helping an opposition party form in Afghanistan."
No,no, no, no...This method of dealing with a situation has gone sour every single time, eg a little funding to the afgan against the (Former) USSR, same as weapons to sadam husain during the IRAQ/IRAN war. And shouldn't send troops in to "help" like Vietnam.
Now supposing that Ben Laden is killed, and he turns out innocent in this case. Do you really want to think about the concequences?
As to suspicion to who did it, there is no actual evidence to link him yet. Just that he has the motive, and possibly the means. I would like to point out nothing as intracit as this has ever been instaged by him, we maybe looking at someone new .
It's easy to come up with possible ideas and solutions, but you need to know your history to see how likely they are to work.
(i'm sorry i've rejioned the topic, i said i wouldn't but i take the situation quite seriously).

educatedfilm: maybe you're right about it not being Bin Laden this time, and about not getting involved in screwy afghan politics.

But Bin Laden still has a label of $5m on his head from previous attacks. So whether america "gets" him for this or for previous terrorist attacks it will be deemed as legitimate by Americans and allies but not by those in the middle east.

Christoph: thanks for your support.. hopefuly our nations will join arms to beat the terrorists all over the world

educatedfilm
not all the people equal, this got nothing to do with their race probably, but it is a fact people can't be equal for many different reasons.

The summit against racism turned out to be "who hates the jews and israel more" summit, because as you know there are many many nazies around the world, in different countries, in many muslim countries foreigners are being treated like ****, but somehow all the summit was turned only against israel.. dont give me the south africa example because in the very same second the blacks there got equal rights they just started to use it against the white citizens, and that's a fact.
the palestinian kids DO HAVE GUNS. eveyday people are being shot down here.
the palestinian police became just another group of terror, when instead of arresting murderers they are killing themselves. Today is 8 years from the Oslo talks, and the hate between the sides are bigger then ever, this is mainly because the fact that from the beginning the muslims were the only people who didnt accept the relatishonship between the jews and this land. They are second class citizens, because they became citizens of israel not because they wanted to, but because they started a war which they've lost... they are responsible for this hate, because they started it and now its their problem they dont have a country.
last two things: untill the end of the six days war the palestinians were not recognized as nation, and israel didnt conquer other nation but parts of jordan and egypt, so you can't say israel conquered the palestinians
and about the parents that dont give a damn about the kids:
we saw many times parents of suicide bombers saying how much they are proud of their kids, and that they are expecting their other kids to do the same..
belive me my parents or your or anyone else in the western world, wont be happy with the fact their kids blew themselves up.. and it is not according to their religion, because the islam is against suiciding
now lets realy stop it here... it's not me against you as you said, so there's no point arguing when we will never agree anyway

I think we should keep this subject at a very low profile,
plus get back to talking guitars&Tricks.(my opinion)
Also all the facts are still coming in over here in the(usa)
Also everyone on here has an e-mail address that could,
be used if you want to debate the issues.(use your e-mail
address.
And if you really want some facts about(Osama bin Laden,Print out the report on him from CNN.Com
Another suspect is (Sadam hsain) and more.
I do support Zeppelin's & Christoph 's plus Fenderblues, replys.And i can't forget that long long reply by Joseph,
which was a well put togather Reply.

Mark

God Bless all

[Edited by skee1 on 09-13-2001 at 10:42 AM]

I just have one last thing to say on the subject -

So what if Bin Laden is killed. Even if he is innocent of this crime in NY, he has already been proven responsible for the embassy bombings a few years ago that killed hundreds.

I'm going to agree with skee1 this should really be discused on an e-mail basis, this is a guitar forum after all.
CNN will give you misleading info, if you want knowledge, you'll have to go out there rearch libraries,talk to poeple, and have some patients.
You sound like you disagree with what i've said, Skee1 i'd be intrested in what you think.

"very same second the blacks there got equal rights they just started to use it against the white citizens".
What's your answer? Leave blacks as they were? They are citizens too. "and that's a fact.
the palestinian kids DO HAVE GUNS"
they have a miniscule number, all of which are smuggled or stolen. In the end they use stones, and end up looking down the barrel of a Klashnikof.

CAn i say something which should make more sense of the situation. On your currency (i'm sorry to reffer to it like that , i've forgotten what it is called) there is a map. THis is a map of "israil as it should be" if you will, which is what it was in the days of Abraham. This is what the government wants it to be like. THis map, extends isreal as far north as taking parts of turkey, and i think taking parts of every nieghbour (i think the whole of Jordan). Do you still wonder why your arab nieghbours are so upset.

I'm not argueing about who started what, what i'm saying is it shouldn't carry on, causing casualties on both sides, but most are on the palastinian.

If you wish to carry on this debate please e-mail me. I am of open mind.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
I'm going to agree with skee1 this should really be discused on an e-mail basis, this is a guitar forum after all.
CNN will give you misleading info, if you want knowledge, you'll have to go out there rearch libraries,talk to poeple, and have some patients.
You sound like you disagree with what i've said, Skee1 i'd be intrested in what you think.

"very same second the blacks there got equal rights they just started to use it against the white citizens".
What's your answer? Leave blacks as they were? They are citizens too. "and that's a fact.
the palestinian kids DO HAVE GUNS"
they have a miniscule number, all of which are smuggled or stolen. In the end they use stones, and end up looking down the barrel of a Klashnikof.

CAn i say something which should make more sense of the situation. On your currency (i'm sorry to reffer to it like that , i've forgotten what it is called) there is a map. THis is a map of "israil as it should be" if you will, which is what it was in the days of Abraham. This is what the government wants it to be like. THis map, extends isreal as far north as taking parts of turkey, and i think taking parts of every nieghbour (i think the whole of Jordan). Do you still wonder why your arab nieghbours are so upset.

I'm not argueing about who started what, what i'm saying is it shouldn't carry on, causing casualties on both sides, but most are on the palastinian.

If you wish to carry on this debate please e-mail me. I am of open mind.

What i think huh!
In your profile you don't have a country,
where your from.
Another thing a debate with you will solve nothing.
To me i think we should leave the debates to the pro's,
plus not start a riot on a guitar message board plus,
hurt alot of feelings of some great guitar players,
and friends.
Mark T. (USA)
P:S:Also if you are from the usa you don't speak for me.
I have no hard feelings against you and i think we need to,
get back to talking guitars.

I know that a lot of yuou guys feel that we should stray from this topic, but this is something that is definitely heavy on our minds., And to a certain extent, it's seems insignificant to talk about anything else, no matter how hard we try and forget about it all. So, since it's already been started...


Everyone fears a war, we all fear that this is just the beginning of a long line of continuous destruction. But we shouldn't jump to conclusions as American citizens, we should have faith in this country and our leaders in command.

You know I've talked with several different people since this destruction, and everyone I know feels the need to point the finger at someone, to find fault and to do whatever it takes to prevent something like this from happening again. Right now our primary concern should be maintaining the safety of this country, and I really don't feel that the powers that be are trigger happy at this point, The President Of tHe United States of America will continue to go forward with a full investigation, and to do whatever it takes to bring the culprits to justice, with with a collective train of thoughts. Whatever the outcome may be, we should have faith in each other, and in this country that we will survive and we will save this country from eternal destruction.

It's safe to say that no one can seriously bite their tongue when it comes to war, because that's definitely a possiblity, but we should be patient and follow in the example of our President, who will lead ius through.


I can't begin to tell you how many arguments there are pertaining to how this could have been prevented, but the truth is that desruction can strike at any moment, and sometimes there's nothing we can do to prevent this. But ever since tuesdays attack, I hate to say that something good can come out of it, but we are definitely more closer than we've ever been before in our lives. We have created a union based on pride, faith and love for our country and for each other. We are now more secure, and methods for safety in airports and all around the country will contue to get stronger and stronger.

I can't seriously watch the television set anymore without breaking down into tears, because it could have seriously been any one of us. The worst part is not knowing what happened to a loved one, the worst part is feeling helpless wondering if there's anything you can do at all to assure the safe return of a dear loved family member.

Although we are torn apart inside, although these tears may never end, I feel that as law biding citizens we will just keep getting strong. Because, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, and prepares us for just about anything. The most important thing to us is keeping those we love safe, I can only imagine what all of these people must be going through now, and I only wish that there was something I could do to seriously help them in their search.


You start up your car in the morning, you look around, and nothing is the same, no matter where you are, no matter where you turn in this country. Because we are so afraid, not only afraid for our lives, but afraid of how this will ulitimately affect this country, and how it has already affected this country. But with our patience, and our strong faith in each other, there will be a difference, and we will make it happen.

In other parts of this world, it's really heartbreaking to know that children all over the globe have been taught to hate, instead of tuly trying to understand that a killing a killing, and love is spread throughout this world. Despite where you com from, love should not be overruled by hate, and cause for revenge.


We say things that we don't mean, we look at those we love and tell them that we never want to see them again, but for the most part these are just words, and for a lot of us we can't even imagine what it would be like to truly never have the chance to say goodbye to someone you care about deeply.

So, all we can really do at this point is pray, and hold onto to everyone that's important to us in this world. To put our petty arguments asde to truly peel away those walls of hate, to find what truly matters in this world. We should hold our heads up high, truly appreciate the gifts we have received, and the freedom that we take for granted.

I pray that this world will not come to war once again, but in someways it already has. But President Bush, and the powers that be, they aren't on a panic mission, they are on safe mission for justice and to prevent anything like this happening again. Despite how we feel about how this man was elected, he's our president, and the last thing we need right now is to undermine his intentions, which are obviously straight from the heart and in the best interests of this country!

-Joseph

the palestinians dont use stones no more, and even when they do they throw them at cars, and this leads to road accidents and people are dying
Just like President Bush, we dont want to negotiate under fire, the palestinians didnt decide yet whether their face is to peace or war... they must understand that killing our civilans everyday wont do no good... the intifada started not because israel wanted it or because sharon went to jerusalem, but because the palestinians want more than they deserve, for example: i dont trust them they will save our holy places when they got the "Kever Joseph" in the Hebron city, even though they knew it is holy to us they painted it and burned it down....Also Jerusalem was supposed to be international city, in 1948 there were no muslim majority there, the jordanian conquered it and the israel re-conquered it to themselves, so why should we give it to the palestinians?????

im sory i still posted it on the board, because i have a problem with my e-mail

I'm in the uk, and about an hour ago i obsorved teh three minute silence... You sound like a pretty nice guy Mark... i went to your site by the way, you sound like a modest guitar guru (been playing since '65, my god...has it been good fun over the years, or is my dad right in saying "it;s a waste of time in the end").
I would advise reading up on your history and your politics (you'll see why so many americans have become anti american, let alone the rest of the world...). I'll accept your comment about hurting poeple's feeling, i'll tread softly, but some things do need to be said.

"I pray that this world will not come to war once again"
Joseph i wish there were more poeple like you.

I can only emphasise that the poeple who did this don't speak for a religion or an idoilogy, how can they there were 4 suicides, and the whole cell could be as small as ten or fifteen poeple. The other thing is not stigmatise arabs and muslim citizens, we shouldn't let our selves to start hating poeple (especially when they're inocent, after all there were arab and muslim victims in the trade centre).

I hope there will now be more sympathy when inccont men, women and children are bombed (like what is happening in iraq as we speak, which is intronational terrorism if you follow international law, as the nofly zone has been imposed by the UK and US with out the UN, and iraq has never put pen to paper about agreeing to it,so both the uk and us have done this to the condemnation of the rest of the world eg China and france were the latest to speak out against it, and CNN and ABc dont even bother to mention it, even before tuesday).
We needn't get into a war over this.

"the palestinians dont use stones no more, and even when they do they throw them at cars"
I'm afraid that palastinains are still using stones (this is what i have been told by a lady doing humanitarian in the arab areas, so i think my source is more reliable than what the isreali media says). I post a reply earlier telling you why they throw stones and shoot at drivers, because of a hadful of settlers there are roads built throgh arab areas and houses, which means that a population of a million plus arabs are torn apart by physical barrier. The arabs get upset retaliate, the story is then given in a very biased fromat (meaning your not told just how many arabs are upstet for the sake of a handful of settlers) upsetting Isrealis, so that the only person to gain anything is the isreali government, as they now have an excuse and their poeple's backing to hit the arabs when it was them who poured fuel onto the fire.

"they must understand that killing our civilans everyday wont do no good..." I agree with that, unfourtantly the isreali governmetn doesn't see that the same way about the arabs.

"not because sharon went to jerusalem,"
I'm sorry that's wrong, he's not just upset arabs he's also upset jews (i have talked to jews about a belife that jews shouldn't step into the dome of rock due to the respect to king solomon, or something like that, i'm sure you can give me more light on this).
"but because the palestinians want more than they deserve,"
THey are 2nd class citizen for Gods sake!

*tries to remember what song goes*

"they murdered malcolm x and tried to blame it on islam"

You are missing something educatedfilm,
the plo's people are not second class citizens, they are no israeli citizens at all, they are citizens of the autonomy and got nothing to do with israel
then we have about 1 milion people, who are citizens of israel and who live inside the country
in my opinion every citizen of the country should receive full rights , both political and humanitarian, as long as they are loyal citizens of the country
the Arabians who are citizens of this country , can do anything i can - be in the knesset, learn at the universities, anything, however according to the statistics about 80% of them dont pay taxes, and no one of them serves in the army... belive me if they will start to pay taxes, their schools will look better, and their whole cities will,
but instead of being loyal to this country, they are praying in the mosques for the death of all the jews.. and you wonder they are 2 class citizens here??? that's what they deserve, if they were in some place like russia, or other european country or even usa, they would all sit in the jail or would be deported instead

I know that people like you think that it's ok for the palestinian to kill jews, because we are conquerors, bla bla bla, but remember: for 20 years the palestinians were under the control of jordan and egypt, and some of them still in lebanon. No one of them got any citizenship there, and those arabian countries never recognized their right for independence. Israel did recognize this right, and the only reason for them to be still without country, is that they didnt decide if they want peace or terror instead
You can't see all the truth on CNN, and from talking with people who are here to "help the poor palestinian"
you werent here when 2 israeli troopers were killed by the palestinian police, who cut their legs and eyes out, then burned them with their cars
I dont think there's any explanation to such a thing, and i dont think that the peace wanting palestinians would do such a thing if they would really want to make peace with us

You know, I've been away for a few days so I'm just barely starting to catch up with these posts and it's nearly impossible because of the length of them and the time I have to read them. But as far as what you said Joseph. You don't think the President's trigger happy? "We will hunt down the people responsible for this and punish them and those who harbor them". Basically if we find out that this was a terrorist attack, which is what it's really starting to look like, we're going to war. There's no way that Bush is going to sit back and make the country look passive by just increasing our defense against terrorists. Bush is going to start a war on terrorism itself. Just like the war we had on communism. Remember Vietnam?

Praise the lord for SteveP and BadHorsie!!!!
It looks like i'm not the only one to say if we hit, we're gonna get hit! and this smells too much of vietnam.
THey want to bomb Afganistan. This would be another act of terror, except Afganistan doesn't have rescure poeple like the US or any money to pull together, and it's a country which has hit rock bottom, politically and financially. Afganistan is still a grave yard from civil war.
I told you at the start they would start bombing and giving lame excuses. We can only pray the pakistan doesn't let the military use its air space