Old British Black Sabbath Tube Tone


Vegas Wierdo
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Vegas Wierdo
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02/22/2006 6:11 pm
What are the specifics?

Every time I hear "War Pigs", "Iron Man", or "Hand of Doom" I get chills down my spine.

The digitalized, filtered tone of today's nu metal/screamo/electro-rock just doesn't compare at all... in my mind.

I know Iommi had an SG... wasn't it baritone scale or something? I imagine he played through a big huge Marshall (in the days when there was no such thing as solid state).

What pedal, what amp, and what else would achieve this for today? I wouldn't want to be limited to Sabbath, per se, but I do think the tone of back then was superior to what's standard today.
# 1
HDJ
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HDJ
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02/22/2006 7:03 pm
Tony Iommi played (plays) through Laney amps...
Check out my band:
Havoc Din
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heknowsnothing
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heknowsnothing
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02/22/2006 7:05 pm
Originally Posted by: Vegas Wierdo I imagine he played through a big huge Marshall (in the days when there was no such thing as solid state).


Nope. Actually i beleive it was Laney.
I dont know about pedals or anything but yes, he played an SG.
BTW Laney make Tonny Iommi signiture head and cabs! Have a look, they look the part but I've never tried them.
Im not ok. Im not okhayhay. Im not ok.
Im not O f****n K.
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heknowsnothing
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heknowsnothing
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02/22/2006 7:06 pm
Originally Posted by: JFRICKTony Iommi played (plays) through Laney amps...

awww 2 minutes before mine. Now i look stupid :p
Im not ok. Im not okhayhay. Im not ok.
Im not O f****n K.
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Blues_Man
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Blues_Man
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02/22/2006 9:27 pm
Originally Posted by: Vegas Wierdo

What pedal, what amp, and what else would achieve this for today? I wouldn't want to be limited to Sabbath, per se, but I do think the tone of back then was superior to what's standard today.



I wouldn't call that numetal, screamo, punk crap the standard of tone today. It doesn't take anything to get that tone. (gain all the way up, mid's scooped). I actually believe people have a higher standard for tone today than back then. Now they have 100's of pedals, back then they had a wah. Today they have a hugely, wider selection of amps than what was available then. back then it was, Fender, Marshall, Vox, Ampeg, hiwatt or Laney, that's about it. It just so happens that people back then had better tone because they had great vintage equipment, actually knew how to play the guitar, and actually knew how to work with their gear to get their sound.
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# 5
heknowsnothing
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02/22/2006 10:36 pm
Originally Posted by: Blues_ManI wouldn't call that numetal, screamo, punk crap

'screamo' 'punk'
hahahahahhahahahahahahahaha aggggg ha
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# 6
Vegas Wierdo
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Vegas Wierdo
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02/22/2006 10:54 pm
Well, I'm kind of a minimalist when it comes to effects. I can only imagine getting a Wah pedal... and maybe a distortion pedal if the amp can't do that job all by itself.

I've seen this stompbox/pedal thingy called a "Big Muff" that has a vacuum tube inserted in it and a British flag on the casing... might that be something worth trying?

The original punks' (c. 1974-1985) tone often sounded crappy because they had the equivalent of what would today be a $150 guitar, a $200 combo amp, and a $40 four track tape recorder. The Sex Pistols were an exception because they stole a big truckload of gear from Rod Stewart (including a custom-built Les Paul worth thousands) and from David Bowie before they were famous (their guitarist and drummer were expert thieves in inner-city London), even though they couldn't play for beans. When they first started out Steve Jones didn't even know how to tune the fancy guitar he'd stolen... Glen Matlock (original bassist before Sid) was the only one who actually knew what he was doing. Fights would break out at their early shows because everyone was so shocked and offended by how horrible it sounded... Johnny Rotten started to hate how things were going once they got famous and people started liking it. He ditched the band, effectively killing it, while they were #1 on both sides of the Atlantic, and on the last night of their first and only American tour.

The Ramones, on the other hand, pretty much had dimestore guitars from Woolworth's and the cheapest amps they could get away with. It wasn't to make a statement; that's all they could afford. If they had several grand to spend on gear and could play like Jeff Beck, they surely would have when they were first starting out. At any rate, the ethos of punk in those days was to "do it anyways" even if you had the cheapest lousiest gear and could only play three chords, if even that (as indicated by the industry phrase "one chord wonders"). This all started in the days when the reigning belief about becoming a popular rock musician was that you had to play as good as Eric Clapton and have $800,000 in back-then dollars to professionally record a studio album.

'Punk' today is of course a simulacra of a past age that either ended in 1978 or 1986, depending on who you ask. Some would say emo began in 1985 (when American hardcore punk was all but dead) and ended in the late 1990s/early 2000s when it became mainstream.

Of course, I firmly believe one should do the most with what they have, both in terms of gear and skill. If you have crappy gear and minimal skills then one must rely on sheer creativity and that renegade pioneering spirit, as did the earliest pre/proto-punk, punk, and alt-rock groups (c. 1965-1986)... and one reason both English punk and American hardcore punk died out is because as the pioneers played on throughout the years, they actually got better at it and then got sick of playing the same three chords for their snarling followers who would tar and feather them if they played a guitar solo that lasted more than five seconds.

But if you have a $3,000 amp, a $4,000 guitar, and can play as good as Yngwie or Stevie... then by all means! As long as it's novel/original... rock on. :cool:

Well, sorry about the info dump/rant there. :o I'm actually a scholarly expert on subcultures such as punks and the like (not joking). Don't know very much about guitars and stuff, though, which is why I'm here. :cool:

Also, the only recent rock 'n' roll music I really listen to (i.e. past the late 1980s/early 1990s), aside from extreme metal (you know, "rarrrrr rarrrrr arrrghhhh GRUNT") is weird underground stuff like Animal Collective or Sleepy Time Gorilla Museum... let's just say that it's not virtuosity or tone that grabs your attention with bands like that (even if it's there, such as with the latter of the two). I guess you could say I associate b!tchin' guitar tone with people who were my age well before I was born.

Edited to add: If I'm not mistaken, the earliest British heavy metal bands (i.e. Blue Cheer, Sabbath [originally called 'Earth'], etc.) claimed that the reason their sound was so radical for its time was because of skill limits. They did weird improvizations around blues chords, made it sound all sinister, etc. Also, Iommi's left hand had been damaged in an industrial accident and there were certain chords he just couldn't play... so he worked with the ones that he could. Also, big huge powerful tube amps as we know them weren't the norm until the mid 1960s. Before that the heaviest bands like Steppenwolf or the Doors had to have an organ player or something to give things the desired oomph. Then around 1967 if I'm not mistaken, in the UK of course, Blue Cheer came roaring out the gates without an organist... and the rest as they say is history.
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02/22/2006 11:28 pm
Another thing is, A wise man name "Satch" once said something along the lines of, "Tone is in the hands, everything else just helps". Which means, even if your playing through, let's say, tony iommis exact setup, and you cant play well, you will still sound like crap. Gear doesn't play as much of a part as your playing ability. I bet if yngwie or steve vai played on a 100 guitar through a 150 dollar amp they would still sound freakin' awesome and have that "signature sound".
I am Comfortably Numb... :D

Oh yeah...STICK IT TO THE MAN!
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Vegas Wierdo
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02/23/2006 6:37 am
That's true. I've seen garage bands with some really expensive gear and it was like "ehhhhhhhhh"... maybe that's why I thought phenomenal tone was a thing of the past. Gotta yank it out just so, I reckon.

On the flipside, there have been some bands that came up with some interesting, bizarre sounds such as Sonic Youth, Public Image Ltd., the Swans, the Pop Group... (all examples of post-punk or no wave) and they were anything but virtuosos. Even Black Flag had some intense sounding stuff that boggled the mind. Sometimes what you lack in virtuosity you can make up with in creativity and weirdness. Observe:

Wikipedia: Sonic Youth

Paraphrasing something I once read about them: $150 dollar guitars just sound like cheap guitars... but if you tune it randomly and strike it with a screwdriver you can make it sound like church bells.
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heknowsnothing
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heknowsnothing
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02/23/2006 9:25 am
about effects, look on www.guitargeek.com. type in an artist and find out what pedals and other gear they use.
Im not ok. Im not okhayhay. Im not ok.
Im not O f****n K.
# 10
earthman buck
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earthman buck
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02/23/2006 8:26 pm
Originally Posted by: Vegas WierdoSometimes what you lack in virtuosity you can make up with in creativity and weirdness. Observe:

Wikipedia: Sonic Youth

Paraphrasing something I once read about them: $150 dollar guitars just sound like cheap guitars... but if you tune it randomly and strike it with a screwdriver you can make it sound like church bells.

So true. I've given up on trying to be the greatest guitarist who ever lived. Now I want to be the guitarist who you hear and go "What the hell was THAT?!"

Sonic Youth is the roxorz.
# 11
z0s0_jp
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z0s0_jp
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02/24/2006 9:21 pm
1971 live rig
.....add gibson sg
"Dammit Jim!! I'm a guitarist not a roadie...so haul my gear"
# 12
Vegas Wierdo
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02/25/2006 7:26 am
Holy crap!!! Why so many?! Isn't that overkill?! Is this the equivalent of taking a barely-street-legal monster truck from your suburban tract home to the suburban grocery store and back again? :eek: What could that possibly accomplish!!!

Is this some way to blast an entire arena without having to mic it through the PA? Is that what that accomplishes? That's the only guess I can come up with. :confused:

What did he use back in... like... 1967 or 1969? What did he use in the studio... back then? What did he play through when Black Sabbath appeared on German television in, like, 1970? Back when I was but a twinkle in my daddy's eye.

Edited to add: How on earth do you play one guitar through six amps?! I had heard that SRV, Keith Richards and several other notables play through two amps so they can get dirty and clean tones going simultaneously - some notable bassists do that, too - but I've always wondered how that was done.

What kinda doohickey/setup allows you to play through more than one amp? I can only ever imagine doing two at once... but... six?! Geez!!!

One amp two amps red amp blue amps.
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Lordathestrings
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02/25/2006 5:04 pm
You have to understand that 35 years ago, arenas did not have the kind of PA systems that are standard fare now. If you look at pix of any band playing a large venu back then, you'll see a massive wall of amps and speakers ranged behind the band. The cable from the guitar, or bass, or keyboard went to a junction box that parallel-connected that cord to each of the amp inputs. It can get..... intense.

My Ampeg VT-22 puts out 120 Watts clean. Push it into distortion, and the numbers get downright scary. Johnny Winter used to play 6 of them at his blues concerts.

Look at pix of old Cream concerts, and you'll see that Jack Bruce and Eric Clapton each had two Marshall heads, each driving a pair of 4x12" cabs. Just try to find any mic or amp for Ginger Baker's drums. Back then, a drummer had to compete with multi-amp stacks, using just his physical strength, and huge sticks!

There are some things about the 'good old days' that I don't miss. It's a great feeling to stand in front of a wall of speakers that are so loud your clothing flaps in the breeze. But the horrible mix that often resulted, and the near-impossible conditions on stage, would not be acceptable today, nor should they be.
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# 14
catboy
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02/26/2006 2:47 am
Tony plays an SG standard tuned to C# to make it easier for his fingers. I heard he uses banjo strings for that matter as well. Laney is his signiture amp but Ive seen him playing Orange and Marshal. Im sure most vintage style tube amps can replicate that sound after all he only uses a distortion pedal, delay and wah and combined with overdrive from the amp.

Yeah all that new nu metal/crash/smash/death/shred is so unimaginative. As for effects, dont you agree that it makes songs a lot more exciting when you hear short bursts or solos using 1 or 2 effects. Otherwise it just gets so boring.
# 15
Vegas Wierdo
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Vegas Wierdo
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02/26/2006 6:35 am
In the "Tone" forum we were discussing Tony Iommi from Black Sabbath and how he had to play through six Laney heads and, like, twelve 4x12 cabs because of those big huge arenas and the lack of PA technology back then. :eek:

Also, I've heard that SRV, Keith Richards, and others run it through two amps at once so they can have clean and dirty going at the same time. I know of bassists who will have two amps, and run it straight through one with just clean simple tone and will have all the weird effects going through the other.

How do you do it? In that other thread, someone mentioned something called a "junction box" or something. So how do you do it? And what else needs to be taken into consideration? I'd really, really like to know!
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Vegas Wierdo
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Vegas Wierdo
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02/26/2006 11:00 am
Tell me more about this "junction box" thing. I really want to know. :cool:

How would a regular cat such as myself go about playing one guitar through two amps? (I've asked as much on the "gear discussion" forum.)
# 17
Lordathestrings
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Lordathestrings
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02/26/2006 12:27 pm
Nothing complicated about it. It's simply a bigger version of a 'Y' cable adaptor. Mount several jacks on a rack plate or a box. Connect all of the 'tip' terminals together. Connect all of the 'sleeve' terminals together. Now, any cable you plug in will be connected to any other cable you plug in. So, one cable coming from your guitar, pedal-board, or whatever, and one cable out to each of your amps.

Amps with multiple input jacks, like some 'four hole' Marshalls, allow you to drive both channels at once by plugging a cable from your guitar into one channel, and running a short jumper cable from the other jack for that channel to one of the jacks for the other channel. Since that leaves one jack for the second channel unused, you can run a cable from there to the input of another amp, with no need for an adaptor cable or a junction box.
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# 18
Tele Master
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02/26/2006 10:42 pm
An A/B will do it. You can have either one amp into 2 guitars or the other way around.
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jeffhx
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jeffhx
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02/27/2006 2:07 am
is there like a minimum wattage the amp needs to be in to plug 2 guitars
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