chord structures

Originally Posted by: JoeNoviceIf you improvise using the A minor scale [2122122] over C , F, and G, does this sound like A minor or C major to you?

It's going to sound like C major, but it's because you're playing the notes of Cmajor as they function in that scale, not as they function in Am.

Yes... Jolly this is what I've been saying all along. This fits perfectly with the original post.

If you re-read the first few post you may see why I felt the need to express the connection or sameness of Amin and Cmaj scales. People seemed to have the idea that playing C major patterns over a progression of Amin, F, G would be using a different scale/key.

IT'S THE SAME DAMN THING! The chords provide the context that produces the tonal quality of the scale. You can improvise with C major all night long over Aminor chord progressions and WORKS FINE!

When played by themselves C6 and Amin7/C are the SAME.

When played over specific chord progressions, C major and A minor scales produce the SAME sounds.

Originally Posted by: JoeNoviceYes... Jolly this is what I've been saying all along. This fits perfectly with the original post.

If you re-read the first few post you may see why I felt the need to express the connection or sameness of Amin and Cmaj scales. People seemed to have the idea that playing C major patterns over a progression of Amin, F, G would be using a different scale/key.

IT'S THE SAME DAMN THING! The chords provide the context that produces the tonal quality of the scale. You can improvise with C major all night long over Aminor chord progressions and WORKS FINE!

When played by themselves C6 and Amin7/C are the SAME.

When played over specific chord progressions, C major and A minor scales produce the SAME sounds.

Ok, I think this is the crux of the problem, I think people won't adapt their phrasing to a Cmajor backing and will continue to phrase licks as they normally would in Am, thus making their lead sound shaky. THAT's why I have a problem with calling them the same thing.

Originally Posted by: JoeNoviceThis is like talking to a horse with blinders on. Open up your mind and stop being so ANAL! :mad:

I rather talk to a donkey about Sympathetic Vibrations, than making you understand the difference between scales.
I have presented all the facts, and proved you wrong in everything you said.
This discussion has gotten redundant, frankly; I am tired of talking in circles with you.
I suggest you do some research and get your theory straight before posting.
Anything you say beyond this point is meaningless.
Time for me to move on.

I dont understand why this guys can't answer direct questions?

I like the way the pups look in this thing.

The C major scale and A minor scale are completely different. Even though they have the same notes, they have a distinctively different quality to them. The difference is the root note. The root note functions as home base to what you write in that key.

Example: If you were to play an A minor arpeggiated lick over a C major chord, it's going to sound contrasting. A more consonant sound would be to use a C major arpeggiated lick instead.

Music is the art of sound, not what scales have the same notes in them. Each scale has it's own quality, and each mode is used to bring about a different quality to what the key might be.

Some days you just need to vent in a non-distructive way. It's nice to have a good argument. :rolleyes:


This is why I like to argue.....

Example: If you were to play an A minor arpeggiated lick over a C major chord, it's going to sound contrasting. A more consonant sound would be to use a C major arpeggiated lick instead.

To me, this represents misinformation. Amin arps. over a C maj. chord would not sound contrasting. It would sound great..... just like a C6 arp.

Amin(7) = ACE(G)

C6= CEGA

Not contrasting.... the SAME!

Contrasting would be a Db arp. over a C or Amin chord.

Originally Posted by: AkiraAt the end of the day it's about what sounds good, not what the pen and paper says.

Yeah, the pen has been put ot the paper to write down what sounds good. There is always a theoretical explanation.

Yeah, you can play any notes from the C major scale (or A minor, arp., whatever) and they'll sound "GREAT" over a C major chord. What you are saying is true. Your just missing the concept of modes. They exist for a reason. Otherwise we wouldn't have such things as jazz or metal concepts (too name a few).

Misinformation? That's arguing about a point you have little knowledge about. ;)

Otherwise we wouldn't have such things as jazz or metal concepts (too name a few).

I play jazz for a living Optimus. Modes are not the corner stone of "jazz" unless you are talking about M. Davis "KIND OF BLUE" album, which was the first "modal" jazz ever written.

This happened in 1958. What about Charlie Parker? Did he miss these cornerstone of "jazz" concepts? Sure doesn't sound like it.

Originally Posted by: JoeNoviceI play jazz for a living Optimus. Modes are not the corner stone of "jazz" unless you are talking about M. Davis "KIND OF BLUE" album, which was the first "modal" jazz ever written.

This happened in 1958. What about Charlie Parker? Did he miss these cornerstone of "jazz" concepts? Sure doesn't sound like it.

OK. Jazz musician or not, your in the Music Theory Section and I cant believe any schooled musician (or one who has taught at a university) would say that C major and A minor are the same when played over a chord progression. Of course a beginner would because they see the notes as being the same, but in theory there is a such thing as modes as well as melodic writting. How is it possible you have let go of this? It’s like a mathematician trying to tell me that numbers don’t exist. :rolleyes:

Take the example you used before; play the C major scale over the “A minor” chord progression: Amin - F - G. This is going to sound like it’s in the key of C. The C major scale over Amin is definitely going to lend to a modal (often confused with a minor tonality) sound. However the first chord, A min is just the substitute for C major chord. Check out the concept of “three principle triads” before you decide to argue with me, or the reason for the harmonic/melodic minor scales. Also, the key signature is decided by the melody not the harmony. The harmony job is to support the melody. This is the concept that gives away to modes.

"C6=(C,E,G,A)
Am/c=(A,C,E)
Nice try tough."

WRONG..... Am/C = (C,E,A,C,E) in open position. The symbol mean C in the bass.

C6= (C,E,A,C,E) in open position...... See?

HUH?? :confused: Open and closed position has nothing to do with inversions. Open and closed chords are determined by the interval from the bass note to the soprano note, which is either an octave less or more. Absolutely nothing to do with a chords spelling. The C6 formula is 1, 3, 5, 6. In your explanation of the C6 chord, there is no 5th (G). The C6 chord is the same as Am7/C. The reason for the chord ‘C6' is to name the chord (regardless of voicing) after the bass note.

Take the example you used before; play the C major scale over the “A minor” chord progression: Amin - F - G. This is going to sound like it’s in the key of C. The C major scale over Amin is definitely going to lend to a modal (often confused with a minor tonality) sound.

When playing a solo you should hear the melody in your head and play it simultaniously. It should not "sound" like C major because of the "pattern" you use. It should sound a certain way because of the notes you choose to use. I may want the solo to sound like Lydian and would therefore use the B-nat. note over the F chord.

I think one of the reasons my comments draw such strong criticism from other members is due to our differing approach to playing guitar. I don't use patterns to create sounds (neither did C. Parker). Mostly I use specific chord tones to produce sounds. (like lydian example above)

This is going to sound like it’s in the key of C. The C major scale over Amin is definitely going to lend to a modal (often confused with a minor tonality) sound.

How it sounds depends on which notes you stress from the scale. I agree that C major over Amin would sound modal..... like Aeolian. This is what I've been saying all along. Why would that be confused with a "minor tonality?" What is the difference between a "minor tonality," Aeolian mode, and C major scale over an A minor chord?

Open and closed position has nothing to do with inversions

No... it has everything to do with playing chords on the guitar that have dual functionality.

The reason for the chord ‘C6' is to name the chord (regardless of voicing) after the bass note.

Yes..... but this depends on function. Without context there is no difference between the two when played on the guitar. Hence C6 = Amin/C.....


I'm not fighting with people about this topic for conclusive right vs. wrong. I'm hoping people who read this will open their theoretical minds up to other ways of thinking about "theory" in relation to playing the guitar.


C major and all of it's spawned modes are in essence the SAME. It is only context and the postion of notes over chords that change the tonality of the melody/solo.

Yes, I agree with most of what you are saying pre-my post, and this last post. The thing that drew my attention is when you said A minor and C major are the same, etc. etc. They're not, sound or on paper. I know the point your trying to get accrost. However, Alot of people (especially people just starting out) can easily get that confused, and then they come back later asking what a mode is and what it's for. There are more beginners who know very little or nothing about theory that come to this site, then there are people who are well-educated.

Minor tonality and Aeolian mode (phrygian, and dorian) all have a minor tonality, just a slightly different quality in each the modes. Like different shades of grey. C major scale used to write a melody that would be harmonized with an A minor chord could be taken either way. However melody determines key, so with some contrast it sounds like C major. The reason why it's a risk to start a song with a contrast between harmony and melody. Everyones ear may preceive something different. Starting with a C major melody over an A min chord could be either the key of A minor with the melody being written in the Ionian mode, or C major with the harmony using a chord substitute (or relative minor). Either way it will sound modal, depending on which your ear key's into.

BTW, Please write Am7/C. C6 and Am/C are not the same. Certain voicings allow for the chords to be the same, but you would have to leave out the 5th.

I think you would be better off learning in the key of C major to start off. Then learn in other keys.

Much simpler and easier for example:

Lets say 1-5-6 chord progresion or Cmaj-Gmaj-Amin

You could use C major scale, Aminor scale or C major pentatonic or(basically the same scale) A minor pent or various modes like C Ionian over the Cmajor chord ect...

Easier when just starting than trying to learn in the key of A minor in my opinion.

Anyone else share this opinion?

I have all the pentatonic "boxes" shown on a 22-fret guitar neck, for all keys, in an Excel spreadsheets. It is an excellent tool when pracaticing.

If you would like me to email them to you, let me know.
Email me at [email]djlogan33@cs.com[/email]

Originally Posted by: Swe_ShredderHow should I know what scales work over certain chord structures?

Like lets say I play Am, F, G, Am

ofcourse the Am penta will work over that progression, but what else will work?

A scale which has all the notes included in those chords is the A minor (aeolian) scale: A B C D E F G.

This scale also includes all the notes in the following pentatonic scales:

A minor penatonic: A C D E G

F major pentatonic: F G A C D

G major pentatonic: G A B D E

One thing you could try is playing the pentatonic scale with each chord as you go through the changes.

You can also just play the Aminor scale over all the changes, but try to emphasize or resolve to notes in the chord

Depending on how long you are playing on each chord, you could treat the G chord as a G7 dominant chord, and experiment with you bluesy licks in G over that chord.

If the tune has a strong, memorable melody, try playing that, and then embellish it with some of the other ideas suggested here.

Peace,
Rico

Originally Posted by: JoeNoviceWhen playing a solo you should hear the melody in your head and play it simultaniously. It should not "sound" like C major because of the "pattern" you use. It should sound a certain way because of the notes you choose to use. I may want the solo to sound like Lydian and would therefore use the B-nat. note over the F chord. [/QUOTE]

Ah, yes yes yes. This is so important. I encourage my students to hum/sing/whistle what they want to play first, then discover it on the fretboard. Music is about what it sounds like, not how we describe it. Theory is a tool to help us understand how to make the sound we want.

Originally Posted by: JoeNovice
I think one of the reasons my comments draw such strong criticism from other members is due to our differing approach to playing guitar. I don't use patterns to create sounds (neither did C. Parker). Mostly I use specific chord tones to produce sounds. (like lydian example above)

I think this is much more musical than just learning to shred some pattern over a chord progression just because the notes "work". Developing technique for playing scales and arpeggios is NOT the same as learning to play music.

[QUOTE=JoeNovice]
How it sounds depends on which notes you stress from the scale. I agree that C major over Amin would sound modal..... like Aeolian. This is what I've been saying all along. Why would that be confused with a "minor tonality?" What is the difference between a "minor tonality," Aeolian mode, and C major scale over an A minor chord?

No... it has everything to do with playing chords on the guitar that have dual functionality.

Yes..... but this depends on function. Without context there is no difference between the two when played on the guitar. Hence C6 = Amin/C.....


I'm not fighting with people about this topic for conclusive right vs. wrong. I'm hoping people who read this will open their theoretical minds up to other ways of thinking about "theory" in relation to playing the guitar.


C major and all of it's spawned modes are in essence the SAME. It is only context and the postion of notes over chords that change the tonality of the melody/solo.

wow I should make more threads, no? ;)

I still cant grasp this whole theory thingy :-(

Originally Posted by: audioanimalMusic is about what it sounds like, not how we describe it. Theory is a tool to help us understand how to make the sound we want.

B-6, I-15, N-28, G-34, O-41

Bingo.

The reason I say theory "has rules" is sounds outside the "rules" sound choatic when they stand alone.