Modal Counterpoint

Hey guys.
I am doing some studies on "Modal Counterpoint". And I would appreciate any information on this topic.
I have been using the "AUTHENTIC MODES" for a while, but now I wanna get into the use of the "PLAGAL MODES" for counterpoint.
I would like to know the Melodic & Harmonic principles of the following modes:
Hypodorian
Hypophrygian
Hypolydian
Hypomixolydian.
What Cadences belong to each mode?

Any help will be much appreciated.

judging by the amount of "feedback" you've gotten on this thread, nobody would be able to answer your question. I strongly suggest you post it in the musician's talk forum at ultimate-guitar.com and a user name that goes by SilentDeftone and Slash_Pwns are THE people to trust on music theory, and i believe they'd be able to answer your question.

Originally Posted by: shreddinlegend..the musician's talk forum at ultimate-guitar.com

Ohhh...that's a curse word around here... :p

Seriously though - I can't confess to have any knowledge of what you're after but have stumbled across this site which may (or may not) be useful,

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/h/hypodorian.aspx

Search through for the other scale mentioned - but I suspect this might not cover the theory aspect you're after? In which case, sorry!...

By all means try other forums - although I'd give it a little longer here for other people to pick-up on the thread; I'm sure there's someone who has an incling.

For my own benefit, if you do manage to find anything about these scales I'd be very interested to know - I've been looking for some new scales and modes to play around with, so anything you find would be an absolute boon.

I got down all the Authentic Modes years ago, and I came across an article talking about the Plagal Modes, and I started to do some reading on the subjet, just when I thought I understood everythig...I found other modes; so now, I have to investigate about those Modes and see what the differences are.
So these are the modes to compare:
Dorian-Hypodorian-Hyperdorian.
Phrygian-Hypophrygian-Hyperphrygian
Lydian-Hypolydian-Hyperlidian
Mixolydian-Hypomixolydian-Hypermixolydian.

The term "Hypo" means playing below, so Hypodorian is playing below the Dorian mode.
The term "Hyper" means playing above, so Hyperdorian means playing above the Dorian Mode.
But, the rules regarding the use of those modes, are very strict. (i.e. what cadences belong to each mode, intervals to avoid, etc)

Are you going crazzy yet?

Where are you finding these modes? What scale are you creating them from? I've done mode studies for Major, Harmonic Minor, and Real Melodic Minor and I've never heard of these "hypo" modes?

Below Dorian? Wouldn't that be Ionian?

This is a strange one.....

Originally Posted by: AkiraI agree. I'd love for someone to explain this more in depth.

Me too...

Could you post a link to anything you've found already equator?...you've got us all pretty intrigued it seems!

Originally Posted by: equatorPlagal Modes

Like on Resident Evil 4?

According to the link from the previous post....

Seriously though - I can't confess to have any knowledge of what you're after but have stumbled across this site which may (or may not) be useful,

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/h/hypodorian.aspx

Search through for the other scale mentioned - but I suspect this might not cover the theory aspect you're after? In which case, sorry!...

This modes is the same as aeolian or Natural Minor. I would spend more time working on the 7 church modes. (Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian, lydian, phrygian, aeolian, and locrian)

After that I would learn the modes for the melodic minor scale.

Plagal Modes are used in a different way than the Authentic Modes.
They have a lower range and for that reason they are written in the clef of C.
Two notes are important the Final and the Dominant.
The Final and the Dominant in the Plagal Modes are different than those in the Authentic Modes.
When using Plagal Modes you MUST resolve to the Final.
They have a relative Authentic mode. But by accentuating the Final and the Dominant of the Plagal mode you create a particular "Mood". and as a result the tonality of your music is changed.
For comparison reasons I`ll writte the modes, using darker letters for the Finals and Dominants.
"D aeolian"=[D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C-D]
"D dorian"=[D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D]
"D hypodorian"[A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A]
"A aeolian"=[A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A]
Note that the three first modes are to be played over a (Dm) or (Dm7),
and the last over (Am) or (Am7).
Some books to read are:
-"A handbook of Modal Counterpoint"
-The Style of "Palestrina and the Dissonance"
-"Sixteenth-Century Polyphony"
-"Contrapuntal Technique in the Sixteenth Century"
-"Approach to Counterpoint in the 16th Century Style"
Websites:
http://clem.mscd.edu/~yarrowp/MODEXh.html

If you are not intersted in the theory I`m gonna post a tablature of a lick based on one of those modes.

Ok. This is a lick I made up. So, if you like it we`re cool, if not; too bad. :D
It captures the essence of the Hypodorian Mode:
a) It starts on "A" which changes the tonal focus of the lick.
b) it contains the flavor of the dorian mode, the "B note",
c) Contains the Final (D)
d) Contains the Dominant (F)
e) Resolves to "D"

"D Hypolydian"
e-------------------------------------------5----------
B------------------------------3------------6----------
G---------------------2---4-----------------5----------
D-----------------3-------------------------7----------
A---------2---5-----------------------------5----------
E-----5-----------------------------------------------

Hey Jolly, are you gonna change your point of view about Relative Scales? :D
Sorry, I had to bug you.

Could someone post an audio of that lick, so everybody can hear?
Thanks.

I like that sound. It still seems logical for me to view this as D dorian though. Same notes different focus. The change of focus doesn't constitue a new mode (to my ear). It sounds more like extensions of the underlying harmony. Dmin/A or even Asus to Dmin.....


Thanks for providing something new to think about! I look at those books and do some more ear training on these re-focused modes.


:cool:

Originally Posted by: JoeNoviceI like that sound. It still seems logical for me to view this as D dorian though. Same notes different focus. The change of focus doesn't constitue a new mode (to my ear). It sounds more like extensions of the underlying harmony. Dmin/A or even Asus to Dmin.....


Thanks for providing something new to think about! I look at those books and do some more ear training on these re-focused modes.


:cool:

Here is something to think about:
When you play an "A minor scale" do you call it a "C major scale" just because they have the same notes?...ofcourse not; they have different origines, the "A minor scale" has its origen on the "A major scale" and when you flat the 3rd, 6th, 7th, it becomes an A minor scale, which happens to be Relative to the C major scale.
Or, if you play a "D dorian" do you call it a C major scale just because they have the same notes?...I hope not, because they have different origines;
the "D dorian" has its origen on the D major scale, and when you flat the 3rd and the 7th it becomes a D dorian, which happens to be Relative to the C major scale.
The problem begins when people teach modes in relation to the C major scale, as in..."play from the second degree of the major scale, and you get a dorian mode"...although that is right; the truth is the D dorian has its origen on the D major scale. As result people play the diatonic modes over a C major chord. I know that sounds good, because the C major chord is made of notes contained in the different modes. But if you do that you are missing the point of playing modes, you should treat the dorian mode as a different scale on its own right, and play it over a D minor chord and progression.
If that is not enough to make you think of the modes as different scales, take a look at the series of intervals they have:
C major=........ P1-M2-M3-P4-P5-M6-M7-P8
A minor=........ P1-M2-m3-P4-P5-m6-m7-P8
D dorian=....... P1-M2-m3-P5-P5-M6-m7-P8
The D hypodorian has its root a fourth below the tonic of the dorian, which means that the root of the hypodorian has a ratio of 3:4 or 1:1.333. and the root of the dorian has a ratio of 1:1
So, we cannot say those scales are the same just because they have the same notes.

C major=........ P1-M2-M3-P4-P5-M6-M7-P8
A minor=........ P1-M2-m3-P4-P5-m6-m7-P8
D dorian=....... P1-M2-m3-P5-P5-M6-m7-P8
The D hypodorian has its root a fourth below the tonic of the dorian, which means that the root of the hypodorian has a ratio of 3:4 or 1:1.333. and the root of the dorian has a ratio of 1:1

Again the G Mixolydian has its origen on the G major scale, and then you flat the 7th, making it relative to the C major scale.
The series of intervals in the mixolydian are:
P1-M2-M3-P4-P5-M6-m7-P8
So we are taking about a different mode.

And I was trying to demostrate how those scales are different in terms of Frequency ratios as well.
In the G mixolydian for example, "A" is major second and it has a ratio of 9:8,
So, in terms of intervals and in terms of frequencies, none of those scales are the same; they are relatives.
Please don`t get me started with frequencies, because that can be confusing, all I`m saying is the hypodorian is not a dorian, nor an aeolian, nor a mixolydian. It is a Hypodorian.