:: Get Them Out Of That Hell ::

Originally Posted by: schmange hell even chips embeded in people to keep track of everybody in the world eventually..

such was predicted in the bible as a sign of the end of the world... I think.. I don't know, I haven't really read revelations all the way through... but, in the 'left behind' series of books, which is a fictional story of what could happen when the appocalypse comes, the "mark of the beast" was a chip inplanted into everyone which you had to have scanned in order to buy or sell anything. so, as soon as I hear of computer chips being placed in everybody, I'm running, if anyone would like to join me in my cave, we can gather around and play guitar together while armageddon goes on outside.

but, sorry, not meaning to change the subject here, just that line made me remember that... but anyways! I agree with rask on almost everything he's said so far.

blah... know what...
This discussion is tiring me just as much as endless discussions about the bible or the existence of God the big sky bully.
Nobody's going to win the argument cause there's no proof one way or the other.
We could go on forever here but to tell ya the truth, it's gotten to the point where the subject doesn't interest me enough to keep typing replies.
All I can say is that I trust my gut and my gut tells me not to trust Bush.
Call it a sixth sense or whatever...

Originally Posted by: 6strngs_2hmbkrsthe "mark of the beast" was a chip inplanted into everyone which you had to have scanned in order to buy or sell anything.

Sign me up. I hope it has some sort of rewards program like my Capital One Visa!

[QUOTE=PonyOne]
to use the "big guy on campus" analogy... what if there was a guy in the high school who took a sucker punch at you, so you beat him down... and when he ran away, instead of chasing him, you grabbed some guy who was cheering him on by the neck, kneed him in the groin, drop kicked him, and gave him an even more severe beat down? so the guy didn't like you, and maybe he even would have liked to have beaten you up, but regardless he wasn't the one that sucker punched you.
QUOTE]

haha... That's a better analogy! Because you incorporated groin kicking!

whatever you think check this site for some iraq war pics some are disturbing but they might change your mind on the war

http://www.awitness.org/journal/real_iraq_war.html

Some of the most graphic pictures you'll see are on MSNBC in the early morning hours when they're reporting live.
I still remember the first war. They were doing a live telecast from one of the hotels where the reporters were staying, when the missiles first started flying. The reporters were all huddled in the rooms talking about what an experience it was. In the middle of the telecast there was a huge boom. The guy with the camera rushes down the hotel stairs to the kitchen area where an out of control missile had hit the hotel.
Lying on the floor face up with her arms outstretched was a young girl in her teens, long dark hair...obviously dead with blood all over her. All the other employees were just standing around her so shocked they didn't know what to do. One of the men was crying at the cameraman not to film anymore. This is all live on the air and she'd just been killed seconds before the camera got there.
They've never showed that clip on tv again.
Seeing somebody killed live on TV is a lot different than getting the condensed version you see on the daily news.
I can't even begin to imagine what it would have been like in real life.

Originally Posted by: =stringbreaker=whatever you think check this site for some iraq war pics some are disturbing but they might change your mind on the war

http://www.awitness.org/journal/real_iraq_war.html

Strong stomachs required!

Originally Posted by: schmangeSome of the most graphic pictures you'll see are on MSNBC in the early morning hours when they're reporting live.
I still remember the first war. They were doing a live telecast from one of the hotels where the reporters were staying, when the missiles first started flying. The reporters were all huddled in the rooms talking about what an experience it was. In the middle of the telecast there was a huge boom. The guy with the camera rushes down the hotel stairs to the kitchen area where an out of control missile had hit the hotel.
Lying on the floor face up with her arms outstretched was a young girl in her teens, long dark hair...obviously dead with blood all over her. All the other employees were just standing around her so shocked they didn't know what to do. One of the men was crying at the cameraman not to film anymore. This is all live on the air and she'd just been killed seconds before the camera got there.
They've never showed that clip on tv again.
Seeing somebody killed live on TV is a lot different than getting the condensed version you see on the daily news.
I can't even begin to imagine what it would have been like in real life.

What about the 500,000 people who would have starved to death waiting for UNMOVIC to give the go-ahead for the lifting of sactions? (Somewhere between 1 and 1.5 million Iraqis died as a direct result of UN sanctions durring Clinton's "quiet" eight years in office, by the way.)

Or Saddam's political prisoners? Or their family members who were often tortured and exicuted along with them? Or the women who had to live with the shame of being gang-raped in front of their husbands?

Should this have been allowed to continue indefinitely?

Originally Posted by: RaskolnikovOr the women who had to live with the shame of being gang-raped in front of their husbands?

Mmmmmmm, the rape rooms. My favorite!

[font=trebuchet ms]Leedogg! Not funny![/font] :(

> What about the 500,000 people who would have starved to death waiting
> for UNMOVIC to give the go-ahead for the lifting of sactions? (Somewhere
> between 1 and 1.5 million Iraqis died as a direct result of UN sanctions
> durring Clinton's "quiet" eight years in office, by the way.)
>
> Or Saddam's political prisoners? Or their family members who were often
> tortured and exicuted along with them? Or the women who had to live with
> the shame of being gang-raped in front of their husbands?
>
> Should this have been allowed to continue indefinitely?

Maybe not, but why does the U.S. have to play big brother and stick their noses where they don't belong?
The reason we have terrorists is because they're pissed off that the U.S. is constantly assuming that their responsible for running the whole world.

Put it this way, if the Mayor of Toronto was torturing people and holding people hostage here, hell yeah, I'd be pissed off.
But if Russia suddenly came over here without being asked and bombed the hell out of Toronto and stuck soldiers on all of our streets and they were still occupying my city 10 years later, how do you think I'd react.
I'd be pissed off at Russia for sticking their noses where they don't belong. No matter what their intent was or what reason they were here, they weren't invited or asked to be here.
I'd be telling them to get the hell out of our city and mind their own business and stop trying to push their way of life down everybody's throats.
And if they didn't get out I'd do anything in my power to get them out.
If that meant sneaking people into their country to destroy their way of life just to make a point because it was the only way to fight back, then so be it.
That's when you get terrorists.

Maybe not, but why does the U.S. have to play big brother and stick their noses where they don't belong?

Because nobody else was doing anything. The difference between us and you Canadians is we're not afraid to roll up our sleeves and do a little messy work to save lives. Is a cop who stops a murder or rape that's being committed in plain sight sticking his nose where it doesn't belong? No, and neither are we.

> The difference between us and you Canadians is we're not afraid to roll
> up our sleeves and do a little messy work to save lives.

Hence the reason our CN Tower is still standing and your towers are a pile of rubble.

I know this is open discussion but I really hate seeing politics on a website I come to read and learn about guitar on. Just my 2 cents!

I was playing guitar as I typed if that helps.

Sorry dude, but politics, love and life are what rock and roll are all about.
You've gotta be willing to debate and discuss topics that you don't like so that you can learn enough life lessons to write songs about.

Originally Posted by: schmange> What about the 500,000 people who would have starved to death waiting
> for UNMOVIC to give the go-ahead for the lifting of sactions? (Somewhere
> between 1 and 1.5 million Iraqis died as a direct result of UN sanctions
> durring Clinton's "quiet" eight years in office, by the way.)
>
> Or Saddam's political prisoners? Or their family members who were often
> tortured and exicuted along with them? Or the women who had to live with
> the shame of being gang-raped in front of their husbands?
>
> Should this have been allowed to continue indefinitely?

Maybe not, but why does the U.S. have to play big brother and stick their noses where they don't belong?[/quote]
We were asked by the Saudis and Kuwait's [then] exiled royal family and then were given UN approval fourteen years ago. A cease-fire was signed, detailing certain obligations out of Iraq's government that it never lived up to, and in fact, did everything within its power to ignore. Coalition aircraft patroling the no-fly zones were targeted and/or fired upon by Iraqi anti-aircraft positions every day for twelve years straight (this in and of itself ads up to over 4,000 acts of war).

Just on these conditions alone, the Second Gulf War should have been over and done with years ago.

I'm not going to be obnoxious and re-list all of the information from my last big post, but that's all a factor, too.

Originally Posted by: schmangeThe reason we have terrorists is because they're pissed off that the U.S. is constantly assuming that their responsible for running the whole world.[/quote]
Not that I don't think US foreign policy couldn't be improved substantially, but we both know that terrorism and its causes are a lot more complicated than that. Al Queda, Ba'athism and our current problems associated with them can be traced back about 80 years to Amin Al Husseini and even the Nazi party.

Originally Posted by: schmangePut it this way, if the Mayor of Toronto was torturing people and holding people hostage here, hell yeah, I'd be pissed off.
But if Russia suddenly came over here without being asked and bombed the hell out of Toronto and stuck soldiers on all of our streets and they were still occupying my city 10 years later, how do you think I'd react.
I'd be pissed off at Russia for sticking their noses where they don't belong. No matter what their intent was or what reason they were here, they weren't invited or asked to be here.

First off, Hussein's ideology and ambitions made him a threat to his neighbors and so the problem he presented was much, much more than just an internal one.

Second, be it do to incompetence, negligence, impotance, or indifference, the UN monitoring body designated to disarm Iraq of WMD under all manner of UN resolutions was ready to leave Iraq with all the machinery and production facillities to make any kind of bomb or missle that Saddam could dream up. ("Hey, Hans! The Iraqis haven't [u]used this stuff lately[/u]... tell the Security Council that they're cooperating!") Meanwhile, he UN Security Councel responsible for enforcing those resolutions had three sitting members with veto power taking bribes from Saddam Hussein; two of which (France and Russia) were respectively negotiating post-sanctions arms sales and actively selling arms to Iraq. All of this as the Food For Oil program syphoned money into Iraq's military rather than into food and medicine for its people, furthering a humanitarian crisis that was already a gigantic propogandic bonanza for the bin Ladens of the world.

Personally, I believe in the idea behind the UN but to trust these sort of monitoring and enforcement duties to an organization whos idea of "Peacekeeping" is for their troops to lend their blue helmets to Serbian troops on their way to massacre Albanian civilians is rediculous.

We were party to a ceasefire that Iraq never honored, Iraq under Saddam was presenting huge stragetic problems for us, people were already dying at an unconsionable rate and we had the power to do something about it -- enough's enough.


[QUOTE=schmange]I'd be telling them to get the hell out of our city and mind their own business and stop trying to push their way of life down everybody's throats.
And if they didn't get out I'd do anything in my power to get them out.
If that meant sneaking people into their country to destroy their way of life just to make a point because it was the only way to fight back, then so be it.
That's when you get terrorists.

It sounds a lot like how we got the Klan, too.



[QUOTE=schmange]Sorry dude, but politics, love and life are what rock and roll are all about.
You've gotta be willing to debate and discuss topics that you don't like so that you can learn enough life lessons to write songs about.

I couldn't agree with this more, though.

Fair enough schmange.

> cooperating!") Meanwhile, he UN Security Councel responsible for
> enforcing those resolutions had three sitting members with veto power
> taking bribes from Saddam Hussein; two of which (France and Russia) were
> respectively negotiating post-sanctions

Too ... many.. big ... words...make ...brain... hurt.... you......win.
...me go back to watching Buffy.

Wow, I got censored. I knew I should've stayed out of this thread :D

Originally Posted by: schmange> The difference between us and you Canadians is we're not afraid to roll
> up our sleeves and do a little messy work to save lives.

Hence the reason our CN Tower is still standing and your towers are a pile of rubble.

I'm not sure if that's the only reason...I think that the terrorist attacks were aimed at the US.... BUT the attacks on the [U]WORLD[/U] Trade Center towers... were aimed at the world economy... in speculation. Also, if you don't have something that other people want... why would you attack them. Why would anybody waste their resources on attacking Canada? Canada doesn't stand as the symbol of modern democracy... and it's not a military super power... I like Canada... the drinking age is 18.... but the differences between Canada and the US go deeper than drinking ages... The US doesn't have to be the big brother... but what if we weren't? The US could easily pull all of it's troops out of every foreign nation and just keep to themselves.... Then 5 years down the road you would have civil wars all through Africa... North and South Korea would destroy each other along with the Eastern Hemisphere....The middle East would be a mess... I think the proactive approach of the US is the only thing keeping the world at somewhat peace... call me narrow minded and blinded by propaganda... but I have my own thoughts and I'm mature enough to realize what's right and what's wrong... though I can't find anything morally right about the US still being in Iraq... I can't fault the US for taking a proactive approach to stop terrorism in its tracks...

"It's not the punch that causes the greatest effects... it's the message that follows the fist" -Bruce Lee