Life or death?

Alright,this terry schivo thing.

A quick,vague summary.She looks like a vegatible,but she might not be totally gone...theres a chance she is 'trapped' in herself and/or can feel things.The husband has succeeded in getting her feeding tube removed and she is dying as I type this.The parents have appealed to the courts and want her to live and re-insert her feeding tube.The husband thinks she would want to die and the parents obviously feel she would want to live or at least die a better way than starve to death.


Live or die?

I say let her parents take care of her if they want(which they do as far as I know)or at least perform euthianasia a bit more humanly than starving her to death.She will most likley die,but what are your thoughts(and yes,I think the husband deserves to be paralyzed in a tragic accident and have his feeding tube removed just to see how it feels/or lack therof)?

Keep in mind this isn't pulling a plug...they are starving her to death.

Also,slightly off topic...my mom came home the other day in a mood.The day before she was upset because she was being assigned to a patient 'on the way out'.Shure enough she comes home the next day heart broken as her patient died while she stepped out for a few minutes.

Shes been a CNA for just under 40 years...seems it never does get easier.

Recently weve been talking quite alot(me and my mother)about handling my fathers impending death.He could go at any time really,and while on medication...theres something in the air among our family.Its coming soon.I just don't want to be around when everone loses it.

dude i think he should let the parents make that descision. after all she does belong to them. it's not like her husband gave birth to her and raised,clothed fed, etc. you get the point. if he wanted his hands clean of her whole deal, he shoud have let the parents take the legal responsiblity for her back in 93 when they tried to and he fought them over it in court. i guess what i am trying to say is he should let the parents make that choice. LIVE OR DIE

PEACE

I think they're doing the right thing. The only part of her brain that still functions is the brain stem which takes care of automatic functions (heart beat, breathing). She has no concept of herself, her parents are holding on to false hopes.

She's been a vegetable since 1990, there's lots of people on these boards who were born around that time. Even in the impossible reality that she some how repairs her severe brain damage and becomes lucid, how do you think she'd deal with missing 15 prime years of her life?

Who here would like to be artificially fed by a tube for 15 years? I know I wouldn't. If I ever become a vegetable I'd hope my tube would get pulled, sending me packing into the great unknown. Not clinging to a damaged, unconscious body for decades.

Even though every person desreves a chance at life, this si a little over board. Just like Leedog said, shes a veg., the husband has been able to cope with it and is able to let her go to a better place, her parents are as leedog said "holding on to false hopes". I dont think this should be a dispute of the congress since they don't care either way, it should be left up to the parents and husband, nothing interfiering. Her husband isn't heartless, just doesn't want terri to go on living like this, would you?

Yeah,liver regeneration is a good thing.I wonder why its the only organ capable of that?It would be great if that could apply to the rest of the body.

I'm glad I viewed what goes on with an organ donor after they die...brutal.Same with some autopsy's.Ive heard of too many people waking up.I'll keep my crappy organs and go the oven route I think.At least then they embalm you and your not defiled buy bugs and whatnot.Sprinkle me around a garden and i'm happy :)

I'm the superior miricale grow!

ok, first of all, I want to say sorry to hear about your g/f's mom, and I think it's cool that you would consider giving half your liver to someone who pretty much hated you.

secondly, I want to say that a person does not belong to their parents after 18, but also if you are married... if you think about a wedding ceremony, doesn't that dad walk down the aisle with his daughter to 'give' her to her new husband? so she kinda belongs to her husband, well ok, they belong to each other...

and lastly, I don't think they should starve her to death, I don't really believe that they should euthanise her at all, but if they do, they should at least do it a little more humanely.

Originally Posted by: PonyOnelook at it this way: in nature she'd have died 15 years ago.

we've kept her body alive without a brain for over a decade and the only reason she's still here is a network of plastic tubes that put nutrients into her bloodstream (she can't chew or swallow because... well... she's brain dead). do you think that's what God intended? I don't. I believe in God and I think that there's a certain point where nature trumps science. we can't bring her back from the dead, which is where she is, so is it more cruel to press on or let go?

it's a sad and pathetic way to go. at least she isn't there to comprehend it.

good point, I think I've changed my mind

Originally Posted by: PonyOnedo you think that's what God intended?

I for one think so...things are the way they should be.God is not taken by surprise and he isn't running a damage control center.

I personally don't believe we have free will.Everyone one of our choices are caused.We are not capable of making a choice without the influences around us,or the pulls of our own minds and emotions.

As for evil and suffering...

Isa 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."

as for that...


Romans 8:18, "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not
worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

2Corinthians 4:17 "For our light affliction, which is but for a
moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal(eonian) weight of glory."

Originally Posted by: PonyOnelook at it this way: in nature she'd have died 15 years ago.

In nature,I would have died years ago,along with billions of others within the last century.I understand you mean to the extent of science reanimating vegitive people(Its not science fiction..people do 'wake up' or 'snap out of it'),but i'm just saying that life is worth perserverance no matter the extent of what we perceive to be a hopeless or a pointless existence...

Ponyone,check out bible-truths.com

I didn't say it was gods will...

Hmmm...I think this email and response might answer well...

(email)"God bless you Ray,

I want to first start off for thanking God for you and the website. The many truths that have been presented have helped me get out of my captive state that the church has had me in for a long time. I now want to have SCRIPTURES that back up EVERYTHING that I have been taught, because most of it has been presented to me from the "faulty" King James and that has caused me to believe (and teach) in error.

Upon reading your paper on free will, I came across this quote and I would like more clarification.

"The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma."

My Question is: How then (or why) is it that if there is no such thing as free will, there is such a thing as accountability? For if God is in control of everything, and He has done everything "according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His Will" - then how can we be held accountable for the things that we "do"?

Respectfully,

Chris

[Ray Replies]

Dear Chris:

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself that causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

Ray"

Thats from the website obviously...I think it applies to your question well though.

There is the relative(here and now)and the absolute(the much greater purpose thats worth every tear shed a millions times over)

My Question is: How then (or why) is it that if there is no such thing as free will, there is such a thing as accountability?

Accountability only exists in relation to one's own standards and one's social context. It's completely relative and only exists because concepts defined as real by one's social context have real consequences.

I don't believe in free will but I'm a very strong atheist.

On the original subject I think people who want to take care of her should be allowed to, but her husband should not be required to pay for any of it. I'm sure enough private donations are available to sustain her life at least for a few more years.

Really,as an athiest hammurabi,what is life all about?Is there a 'why' or 'reason' in life and creation in general?Just curious.

I think some times I liken athiesm to nihilism for some reason...(though I wake up some day's in a pessimistic,nihilist jerky mood)

Originally Posted by: chucklivesoninmyheartReally,as an athiest hammurabi,what is life all about?Is there a 'why' or 'reason' in life and creation in general?Just curious.

Who says life has to be about anything? There's no 'why' or 'reason'.

I think some times I liken athiesm to nihilism for some reason...(though I wake up some day's in a pessimistic,nihilist jerky mood)

I'm much more cynical than the average atheist.

First off, I am making a will real soon, and I'm making a living will at the same time. If you don't know, a living will is used when you are still living. (wow, that was smrt) It would be used in a stiuation such as Terry's. If I am ever in a situation such as hers, I want to be un-plugged. If I have to be hooked up to a machine to keep me alive....
It is really hard on the family. I know that there have been cases where people have been in a coma for many years and suddenly snaped out of it, but I can only imagine the stress and hardships my family would go through if I was in a situation like that.
Really, once you turn 18, you don't "belong" to your parents. When someone dies, all their possessions and what not go to the closest living releative. Both of my grandfathers have died. The first one was divorced so everything went to his kids. On the other side of the family, his wife, my grandma, got everything.

I think its a real good idea for everyone to make a will. It takes care of most of the problems that occure when there is a death. There have been a ton of problems after my most recent Grandfather died: seblings fighting over money and all that crap. I know when you are young you feel like you are never going to die, or you feel you have all the time in the world, but you never know.

[font=trebuchet ms]Sad all 'round. So many people on either side claiming to represent the interests of a woman who (arguably) has not existed since 15 years ago....[/font]

I truly wonder if 15 years ago she died in a spiritual sense and is 'asleep'(what I believe everyone does until the resurrection,though,for the person who died its a blink of an eye)or departed from her body(popular christian belief)or non existent(for you athiests out there)

all just speculation.

Amen Chuck........."HE is Risen!"

R.I.P Terri Schiavo