Who has high-end car or home audio systems?

This has really been buggin me recently.
What do you guys use to listen to music with. Like does anybody here have what you'd call 'audiophile' equipment. (ie, not a pre-packaged Technics or Pioneer system for $1500).
I'm talking at least $10,000 to $50,000 for the whole system and the real audiophile stuff you find in audio magazines...at the very least Luxman or Denon or something.

I'm just curious cause I used to manage a high end stereo shop so I basically spent 5 years demoing some of the best systems around. Like car stereo systems with 2000 watts in the back running two 15" subs, another 1000 watts running the mids, high end tweaters behind the rear view mirror.
Same thing with home systems like high end audiophile stuff with Oracle turntables ..M3 monster cable ... $4000 CD player etc...
When I started working there I had no clue what a good stereo system sounded like and it just blew me away that I never knew how well music could sound. Then I kinda got used to it and got used to always using great sounding demo CD's that would show off the system.... right from the highest highs to the lowest bass and lots of reserve power.

So it's like, now I'll go to a friends place or something and they think that their new Sony or Pioneer surround sound systems or car stereos sound amazing and all I can think is that they don't have a clue what a real system sounds like. I have to put on this fake smile and go 'yeah.. sounds great :rolleyes:

I guess one thing that's really been buggin me recently was spending several months recording a bunch of songs that I thought would sound good on a high end system. (at least as good as I could do it without going into a million dollar studio)
Like buying some of the best software synths available (absynth, halion, Pro-52, B-4, Battery etc...) and keeping everything except the guitars and bass as digital and clean as possible.
I posted the songs in several newsgroups and got some decent replies for the most part, but every once in awhile I get a comment like the drums are really cheap sounding or all the songs sound the same & I'm like... huh? What the hell's going on? I bought the best drum loops on the market... how come they sound cheap?

So I guess the question is, when you guys demo somebody's music, do you play it through a decent stereo system or are you just listening to it through small computer speakers?
Do you use headphones?
And if you have a decent system, what is it?

Yep, back in the UK I have a big old modular Marantz stack complete with DCC unit going into Rogers LS3/5As / Warfdals. It set me back about 3k in 1994 and I don't imagine it has held its value ! However it sounds very nice especially through the Rogers !

Here in the US I have to make do with my studio (biamped Alesis M1s out of an RME Audio DIGI 96/8 PAD card, very tasty !). I use this to edit and mix with. I'm not even going to think about mastering through this system as A) it is not really up to it and B) the room acoustics really distort the frequency spectrum, bringing the bass way up. Even though these are near-field monitors and I have the corners of the room filled up with old boxes the room acoustics still give a false bottom end !).

As far as mixing is concerned I was taught that the art of a good mix is not something that has gone through a BBE sonic maximizer and had its bottom end synthesized to bits and totally blown out, but something that sounds as good as it can no matter what you play it through (i.e. the tracks have been EQ ed so they don't muddy each other up and can be clearly heard (unless you are using the instrument as a pad)) hence the need for flat response monitors rather then the very colored speakers that come with "pret a porter" stereos.

What do you mix through (Don't for the love of God say headphones !!) ?

You guys seem to know a lot about sound equipment... what's a poor, struggling college student to do about getting a nice sound system? What should I go with to get the best value for my money?

As Schmange was saying, avoid run of the mill stuff from Best Buy or Target. You will pay through the nose for something very average !

A good rule of thumb is don't ever buy an all in one system with lots of flashing lights. Lights mean they have spent money on cosmetics rather than the sound...or to detract attention from sound that it is sub-standard ! You are getting a sound system, not a disco !

You can get some pretty cool stuff second hand (from a reputable dealer who offers some sort of warranty). Read reviews in HiFi mags but, like Lordofthestrings says listen with your eyes closed !

A good bit of advice is take a CD that you know very well and has been well recorded as a reference and get them to play it on a bunch of different systems.

I like Sheryl Crow's come on come on,
Wrong way up by John Cale and Brian Eno and
Vivaldi's four seasons.

Generally pop music is not to demanding however classical music which uses more of the frequancy spectrum.

Whilst shopping, you can listen to these recordings on high end stereos that have a price tag well above what you can afford and this gives you something to aim at.

Armed with an idea of what you are looking for it is time to decide on a budget, hit the second hand electronics stores and go shopping.

I went through my undergraduate and masters degree with a 100 buck system. It was crap but infinitely better than nothing !

Another option is a nice sound card (avoid Creative labs sound blasters at all costs) hooked up to a nice amp or some biamplified speakers.

Biamps are great as they minimize distortion by not sending the wrong frequency sound to the speaker. ie a tweeter will produce distortion if it is asked to make bass noises and visa versa. With biamps you have performed your crossover filtering before the signal get to the speaker giving you a much nicer reproduction.

Originally Posted by: Dr_simon

What do you mix through (Don't for the love of God say headphones !!) ?

That's all I've ever used. I don't even own a pair of speakers anymore. I can't get into music unless it's really loud, right in the middle of my head.
I find I can never get speakers that'll go loud enough. I either end up clipping the fuses or burning out the tweaters or physically blowing the cone right out of the woofers.
I usually find the audiophile stuff that sounds really great isn't built for abuse.
And the punchy speakers sound great in the bass but the high end sucks.
One advantage of working in a stereo shop was blowing the hell out of systems
after work :)

As far as picking a system... like these guys are saying... avoid those stupid all in one things by Technics. You're better off buying a really good, poweful amp. A better than average CD player and a pair of good speakers. And don't skimp on the speaker & rca cables. Forget the radio, turntable and cassette deck..they're useless.
And as far as taking a CD you like... it's a good idea, but it's also a good idea to have the sales guy play some stuff that he knows really well, that shows off what the system can do.
I can't count the number of times somebody would come in with a crappy cassette because some magazine said to listen to something you know... I'd put the cassette on and it'd sound just as bad as it does on their original system.
Any audio guy should know at least 5 amazingly produced CD's that show off the bass, how the bass sounds when the other instruments come in, how much reserve power there is for dynamics... stereo seperation etc...
Man.. there's so much stuff that people believe that just isn't true.
Don't buy based on wattage cause there's a lot more to it, like quality components and well designed electronics. Wattage can be rated in different ways too, which is why you can buy a 1000 watt Pyramid amp for a few hundred bucks.

Then there's the ultimate piss off thing that about 90% of people believe..that too much wattage will blow your speakers. It's actually too little wattage that'll burn up your speakers because of the distortion from the clipping. It burns out the diaphram.
You can physically blow a woofer out of a speaker with way too much wattage but it's pretty rare.

And hey... nifty trick if you wanna see how stable your amp is.
Hook up one pair of speaker wires and put a pencil lead between the positive and negative leads. Turn the amp up full blast. If the amp doesn't crash and blow a fuse, you'll get a kewl burning pencil lead. (don't do this with crappy systems or you'll fry it.)

Man.. I feel like I'm back at work describing all this stuff... this is depressing. :cool:

Oh dear headphones !!!

I think you have answered your own question !

I got a really nice set of headphones (Sony MRD7509s 200 dollars worth) with the intention of tracking and mixing through them.

Well I did, and it sounded great through the headphones.

Then I listened to the mix through my studio monitors....oh my god it was dreadful, all the vocals were out (not even in with them selves), the stereo imaging was all over the place and in short it was horrible !

Net end result I do not trust headphones at all !

When Im tracking vocals these days I will send the entire headphone mix through the left can and keep my right ear free of headphones, that works well ~! I never mix with them as it is like working with rose tinted spectacles.

I find that mixing using HiFi speaker is the same !

If you are at very high volumes you may also be suffering form Fletcher Munson equal loudness Curves.

You know how your tone changes when you crank your guitar amp, well this is to do with the perception of frequencies at different volumes. At loud volumes you are listening to a different frequency distribution and correcting for it when you mix. When you turn down, the frequency distribution changes but remains with the same EQing you have applied at high volume. It is a bit like mixing in a room that sounds very bassy. You here a lot of bass and turn the bass down. You move into another room and.... where is all the bass ?

It's hard to say. I've always used headphones so I know what they're supposed to sound like with the proper material. Speakers always sound boomy and boxy to me.

I bought a pair of Sennheizers for $150 and they sucked so bad I wrote to the company cause I thought they were defective. Didn't like Sony very much either.
Right now I've got a pair of Koss something or others (can't see the model number for the duct tape :)
I've used them for about 3 years now and through a lot of trial and error I thought I was finally getting a good sound out of em...

I dunno.... you tell me. How do these sound on a decent system through actual speakers?

http://s93744050.onlinehome.us/mp3/Stargate.mp3
http://s93744050.onlinehome.us/mp3/Rocksplosion.mp3

... or more specifically, if they sound like crap, what do ya have to do with your settings to make em sound ok?

To me they sound a little bass shy and kinda harsh sounding... although some of that has to do with converting down to mp3. Other than that I don't have a clue how to get a clearer sound with what I've got other than maybe spending a lot more time on eq'ing each instrument to its own frequencies. It's either that or upgrade all my equipment again.

You have done a great job with the tracking and remember I'm not a professional mastering house....(but a lowly underpaid and over worked scientist) !

It is difficult to get right in there without a multi-track and remember I don't really know what the final sound you are after is.

There is a lot of signal between 86 and 170 Hz and not much between 170 and 340. This effect of scooping your bottom mid is making you sound a little thin despite the fact that there is loads of bass. However, you need to be careful boosting this region (or cutting some of the bass) as just EQing the mix changes the character of the track too much (or I'd a posted it). I'd have a go at tweaking all individual tracks (more low mids less bass) with the exception of the rhythm guitar mids (as that is too prominant and a deal breaker) in the hope of fleshing it out a bit more.

Hope this is helpful. Do you use Wave lab ? Waves plug-ins ? They are great even as just analysis tools to look at your frequency spectrum.

I'd still buy some flat response near-field monitors !
(cheeky northern b****** that I am !!!)

> Hope this is helpful. Do you use Wave lab ? Waves plug-ins ? They are
> great even as just analysis tools to look at your frequency spectrum.
>
> I'd still buy some flat response near-field monitors ! (cheeky northern
> b****** that I am !!!)

Actually yeah... I've got all that Waves stuff on my HD and never used any of it.. duh!
Guess I should spend some time learning to use em.

hmm... that bass problem might be from using T-Racks. I pushed the tracks with a compressor and limiter to get more punch out of em and I had to drop some of the bass to get rid of the distortion it was causing. I was thinking more in terms of tv soundtrack stuff so I figured the bass wasn't as important as getting the tracks as loud & punchy as possible. There's several factory presets like soft compression, 2" tape or brick wall. Brick wall is like what a.m. radio uses to get tunes as loud as possible. I basically just picked that preset and adjusted the eq until it stopped distorting. That's probably what's causing the harshness I'm hearing too.

I'll try remastering em tomorrow with less 'bricks' & post em again, see if there's any improvement.
Thanks for your help doc :)

Any time dude, g'luck !

Originally Posted by: Dr_simonYou have done a great job with the tracking and remember I'm not a professional mastering house....(but a lowly underpaid and over worked scientist) !

...


There is a lot of signal between 86 and 170 Hz and not much between 170 and 340. This effect of scooping your bottom mid is making you sound a little thin despite the fact that there is loads of bass. However, you need to be careful boosting this region (or cutting some of the bass) as just EQing the mix changes the character of the track too much (or I'd a posted it). I'd have a go at tweaking all individual tracks (more low mids less bass) with the exception of the rhythm guitar mids (as that is too prominant and a deal breaker) in the hope of fleshing it out a bit more.

I wholeheartedly concur. Especially with the part about being a scientist.

Perhaps you would like to give us your opinion on Fletcher Munson Equal Loudness Curves eggman...what "you don't know what they are" Oh.... then shut up !

heh.. too late. :)
Fletcher Munson... he's the guy who invented yolkless eggs right?

ok Doc dude...
Another try... These ones are the same mix... basically straight outa the board, then re-mastered softer with a slight push in the bass end... sorta opposite to the way the last ones were done.
Same links...

http://s93744050.onlinehome.us/mp3/Stargate.mp3
http://s93744050.onlinehome.us/mp3/Rocksplosion.mp3

If this still sounds wrong I'm gonna spend a few days remixing from scratch.

Cool, Ill spend an hour on 'em when I get home tonight !

Both sound much better.

I rolled off some of the very bottom end off rocksplosion and it added a little more punch / a little less mud however, I also know from experiance that is my system that has a strange bottom end anyway due to bass heavy room acoustics.

Yeah good job man !

Kewl, thanks doc!
I think I'm figuring out some of what's been happening too.

People who are using lower end systems or car stereos usually say that the brick wall mastering sounds best. Which sucks for me cause it just sounds digital, compressed and distored. All the dynamics, bass and subtle stuff gets lost. But I guess for them, it sounds closer to what they're used to on the radio or in a car. It's easier to hear the songs cause it's pushed high enough to overcome road noise.

Higher end systems sound best with gentle compression & the less messing around the better. But ya gotta spend more time on the initial mix before it gets mastered so ya don't lose the quiet stuff in the mix.

Man, 3 years later & still so much to learn. :rolleyes:

That all makes perfect sense to me and it is also worth remembering that car stereos are one of the worst things to listen to anything on, primarily on account of there crap dynamic range. This in conjunction with lots of engine noise, masking anything even vaguely resembling a nuance is basically an audiophile nightmare.

There is a reason why good sound kit is manufactures with low self noise !

Acoustic properties of the interior of a car, well...dreadfull !

That explains why bands always have a 'radio' mix for singles.
Basically, master the whole album the way it should sound on the best system around. Then pick one or two of the most commercial songs and release them as brick wall mixes for radio.

aha... the light finally goes on in my brain :) The world is making sense again.

Well then ! I always thought a "radio-mix" was a shorter version with the expletives cut out ! But your perspective certainly makes sense !

Some of the people over at KS have payed commercial mastering houses to finalize there albums for them and it is something I am seriously contemplating when I am ready. The results have been,well, on the whole good !