hendrix vs. van halen

Originally Posted by: aschleman

Jimi Hendrix wasn't the first to do what he was doing either... and I'd never claim that...


That and Jimi played a Strat...

.............

I was joking about the Strat part... it's sarcasm... It's not as funny when I have to explain it... especially after you so politely explained to me that EVH played a strat too..... which I already knew... It was a poor example of a Stratocaster as well... But yes, he did make it sound oh so wicked...

Tapping is flair... a novelty... Atleast it is now a days... every kid that picks up a gutiar just wants to learn how to tap... EVH brought it to the masses... I wouldn't say he created it. It was probably more of an adaptation...

I was born in 83... so no, I've never seen Van Halen live... and honestly, you couldn't pay me to go see them.

I can already tell by your input in the "resolution to speed" forum that you seem to think that technicallity trumps creativity in the realm of musicianship.... and there's where I will tell you that just false. You can teach any kid off the street how to play a fast lick or two... you can show him how to play fast... You can't show a kid how to play with passion and feeling. It's something that you either have or don't have... EVH didn't have it.......... I'm not going to get into a long debate about it so I'll just say that your opinions on the subject of Eddie Van Halen are yours and there they will stay...

If it weren't for guys like Clapton and Hendrix.... Van Halen never would have picked up a guitar and we wouldn't be having this online chat via forum...

You take the technical guitarist... I'll take the soulful guitarist.

I'd rather listen to a human play a gutiar than a machine any day of the week... but that's just me... I have a pulse and I breath air... and I feel pain...

Jeff Beck>Van Halen..... either way

>>Tapping is flair... a novelty...

grrrr......
Not if you do it right.

Originally Posted by: schmange>>Tapping is flair... a novelty...

grrrr......
Not if you do it right.

My thoughts exactly. People just dismiss a lot of techniques outright because they haven't mastered them or even studied them in-depth. As I said, EVH in Eruption is playing Vivaldi-inspired lines. The solo is making a statement, that now these piano lines that were once very difficult on guitar can now be played with ease. The possibilities with tapping, just as with sweep picking, are many.

'I can already tell by your input in the "resolution to speed" forum that you seem to think that technicallity trumps creativity in the realm of musicianship.... and there's where I will tell you that just false. You can teach any kid off the street how to play a fast lick or two... you can show him how to play fast... You can't show a kid how to play with passion and feeling. It's something that you either have or don't have... EVH didn't have it.......... I'm not going to get into a long debate about it so I'll just say that your opinions on the subject of Eddie Van Halen are yours and there they will stay...'


Whatever assumption you are making here about me is not true. You seem to be of the mindset that technique and creativity cannot go hand in hand. You don't think that what EVH did with the whammy bar was creative? With tapped harmonics? The two are not mutually exclusive. It takes technique many times to be creative. Think about it, if Jimi Hendrix hadn't practiced the blues scale, he wouldn't have been able to be creative with it. Same goes for EVH and many other guitarists.

And yes, you can teach someone to play with 'passion.' All you have to do is show them the different types of cadences and teach them about vibrato. Voila', emotional expression.

It's fine if you think that Hendrix is more soulful or whatever---but when you start trying to say EVH is not creative or didn't have any musical ideas to express and the like, it's just not true.

Originally Posted by: PlatonicShred

It's fine if you think that Hendrix is more soulful or whatever---but when you start trying to say EVH is not creative or didn't have any musical ideas to express and the like, it's just not true.

It's not true because you're the authority that depicts what is musicla ideas and what is creativity? Is that why it's not true?

Originally Posted by: PlatonicShred'I can already tell by your input in the "resolution to speed" forum that you seem to think that technicallity trumps creativity in the realm of musicianship.... and there's where I will tell you that just false. You can teach any kid off the street how to play a fast lick or two... you can show him how to play fast... You can't show a kid how to play with passion and feeling..

But in the speed thread, you dismissed Zakk Wylde as a Virtuoso because he couldn't play as fast some other guitarists.

Originally Posted by: elklanderccBut in the speed thread, you dismissed Zakk Wylde as a Virtuoso because he couldn't play as fast some other guitarists.

Fancy that, I dismissed Zakk Wylde as a virtuoso because he simply could not play as fast as a virtuoso should be able. That doesn't mean I think that speed is all that matters. The term virtuoso is not something to just bestow on every guitarist we happen to like. For example, I LOVE Angus Young and think he's an awesome player, but is he a virtuoso? Nope. Not even close.

Zakk Wylde also doesn't demonstrate a lot of melodic invention when he is playing fast, yet another reason I wouldn't consider him a virtuoso. What he plays are licks other players made first--but those other players maybe used them 20% of the time, whereas Zakk's fast-playing repotoire consists of them.

The argument you're making against me is like this:

A: Man, Joe Honkytonk down the block sure is good, I think he's a virtuoso.
B: Well, no, he's nowhere near as good as Franz Liszt or even George Gershwin. He's a good player though.
A: All you care about is speed! Speed!

Nah, it went a lot more like this:

Originally Posted by: elklanderccI've seen many videos of Zakk Wylde playing unplugged or with an acoustic and he plays pretty cleanly, why people think he's overrated while Billy Joe Armstrong (or whoever) prounces around like he's God is beyond me.

Also, Alexi Lahio was saying in an interview that a lot of guitarists these days are super fast but can be super lame. I agree, I don't listen to a whole lot of Petrucci because he plays fast through lots of his songs and it sounds like one long solo and I just get turned off and change cd's. I do like his newest cd though.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by: PlatonicShredI've seen his acoustic live sets, and I have to disagree. When he gets really fast his alternate picking breaks down and it mixes between legato. Not only that, but the licks he plays at those speeds almost sound like they are just 'stock fast licks.' Some of the notes and whatnot don't really go with the underlying progression, maybe that's due to his heavy EVH influence.

Listen to the solo on Stillborn to hear what I'm talking about.

Not to say that Zakk Wylde can't play, but I wouldn't call him a virtuoso.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by: elklanderccWere talking fast in general, not fast picking hand so mixing between legato and alt. picking is irrelevant when talking about speed. I agree about the "stock fast licks" because a lot of his acoustic is fast scales. I do disagree about him not being a virtuoso though. He might play alot of stuff drop tuned and low on the neck, but listen to him play Sabbath songs during an Ozzy tour, the only person who could play them better than that would be Rhoads (R.I.P.) himself.

Who do you consider virtuosos?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=PlatonicShred]Firstly, I didn't say you were a virtuoso if you could play at 180bpm+, I said you were knocking on virtuosity's door. Virtuosity is not the same as being a full-blown virtuoso.

If you want to take the real definition of virtuoso, there are very few guitar virtuosos---and even Yngwie wouldn't be one, because he cannot read music. A virtuoso is someone with NO musical weakness whatsoever on their chosen instrument.

Virtuosity is having some of the characteristics of a virtuoso--in this case having somewhat the speed of a virtuoso.


Second, with regard to Zakk Wylde--actually if you are talking about real speed, it is important that Zakk Wylde be consistent in his playing. As I said before, he cannot sustain the high speeds without resorting to legato to give the appearance of keeping the same tempo.

In that solo, he starts off pretty fast but then can't keep the steady stream going and so he stops alternate picking---the result is that the line still sounds like it is flowing at the same tempo when in fact his playing becomes MUCH slower overall.

Ask any professional guitar player about how hard it is to alternate pick at 180 versus how hard it is to legato at 180 and they will tell you that the former is harder because it requires both hands to be coordinated.


As to who I regard as virtuosos, there are not many. Going to Berklee you're exposed to a lot of brilliant musical minds on every instrument, and you start to see that it's not just speed or technique--even though its a huge part--that determines this quality. I think John Petrucci is a virtuoso, an all-round talent that has no real weakness. Al Di Meola is in the same vein, even though he refuses to use more practical techniques for some things.

[QUOTE=elklandercc]A virtuoso is "Someone with an outstanding technical ability at singing or playing an instrument." If you think Al Di Meola or Petrucci have no music weakness, you are very worng. I'm sure if you were to ask them in aninterview I have no doubts they would throw a list at you. Don't get me wrong, they are 2 of the best guitarists that will ever live, as well as Satch and Vai. But you have to admit that Zakk fits under that category. A lot of guitarists use Satch, Vai, Di Meola, or Petrucci to rate other guitarists and I think that wrong.

And with the speed thing, again, its speed in general, not strickly picking hand. Sure, everyone knows legato is much easier that alt picking which is why a lot of shredders use it. Listen to some Racer X and hear Gilbert's blazing fast alt. picking and legato. A classic example is Superhero's (Jolly, your the man), in the 2nd he goes from alt. picking to sweep to legato at blazing fast speeds and keeps up his pace. Just because some parts of the solo would be eaier to play than the other (to him, not us hahaha) doesn't mean its not fast playing.

[QUOTE=PlatonicShred]They don't have any real weakness as compared to the average player. Just listen to them play. Sure they'll say 'I have a harder time with X and Y' but that doesn't mean they do X weakly, as a matter of fact, most of the time they excel at whatever X is.

And again, if you want to go on PURE speed i.e. legato and alt picking whatever--Wylde still does not make the cut. A legato run from Paul Gilbert versus one from Zakk Wylde is a lot faster. The reason why I discounted Zakk Wylde is that he uses legato to keep the flow going, which gives his lines the appearance all being played at an even tempo with the same note durations when they are not. That's all.

And aschleman, no one is forcing you to read or post to this particular thread, why insult it?

...

Now I'm gonna let these threads go because Jon already gave 1 warning to people who were bickering.

I don't know what you proved with that, I clearly upheld my previous contention with my words on the other forum:

'Firstly, I didn't say you were a virtuoso if you could play at 180bpm+, I said you were knocking on virtuosity's door. Virtuosity is not the same as being a full-blown virtuoso.

If you want to take the real definition of virtuoso, there are very few guitar virtuosos---and even Yngwie wouldn't be one, because he cannot read music. A virtuoso is someone with NO musical weakness whatsoever on their chosen instrument.

Virtuosity is having some of the characteristics of a virtuoso--in this case having somewhat the speed of a virtuoso.'

Where I say that speed is just ONE aspect of being a virtuoso, therefore implying that speed is not all that matters to me. Quot Erat Demonstratum.

Make a point without being argumentative already

it's getting annoying.

Originally Posted by: aschlemanMake a point without being argumentative already

it's getting annoying.

I did make a point: EVH is the better guitar player. That was the beginning of this exchange. I stated why I thought that, and people responded to me, and I responded in turn.

Again, no one is making you read or post to this thread--why be mean?

Originally Posted by: PlatonicShredIEVH is the better guitar player.

That's your opinion... we've established that.

I'm not being mean. I just don't see why everyone of your posts has to blantantly attack the opinions of others... I think you've made your opinion very clear. I would rather read other peoples opinions than keep reading yours over and over.

This thread has been blessed with very understanding people that can share opinions freely... All I ask is that you atleast give people their opinion without trying to negate it and call it false becasue in the end an opinion is an opinion... You're not an authority figure on guitarists by anymeans... You don't say who is better than who... It's a choice that people make based on their own musical tastes... So take your opinion that EVH is the better gutiarist and leave it at that... This is suppose to be a forum to share your opinion... not argue everyone elses opinions...

Don't ripple the calm waters of GT because you feel like we're trying to prove you wrong... We're simply telling you our O.P.I.N.I.O.N.S.

I'm letting you have your opinions. I stated awhile ago that if you want to say Jimi is the more soulful player--fine. All I did was point out your false statements: That EVH didn't express much musically and the like. Those are false, whether you want to admit it or not. If it comes down to a matter of personal taste, hey, that's subjective.

But don't start digging into a guitar player based on claims that are not true. That's all we've been going back and forth about. Me illustrating that EVH has done a lot of the things you have said he has not done.

Warning: this thread is perilously close to lock-down.

Originally Posted by: aschlemanThat's your opinion... we've established that.

I'm not being mean. I just don't see why everyone of your posts has to blantantly attack the opinions of others... I think you've made your opinion very clear. I would rather read other peoples opinions than keep reading yours over and over.

This thread has been blessed with very understanding people that can share opinions freely... All I ask is that you atleast give people their opinion without trying to negate it and call it false becasue in the end an opinion is an opinion... You're not an authority figure on guitarists by anymeans... You don't say who is better than who... It's a choice that people make based on their own musical tastes... So take your opinion that EVH is the better gutiarist and leave it at that... This is suppose to be a forum to share your opinion... not argue everyone elses opinions...

Don't ripple the calm waters of GT because you feel like we're trying to prove you wrong... We're simply telling you our O.P.I.N.I.O.N.S.

What does opinions stand for? :rolleyes:

The last series of posts is exactly why I don't get involved in these kinds of threads. The two guitarists we're totally different. It's irrelevent who is better than who. I strongly advise everyone to stay away from threads like these. They breed bannings.

I think you are all forgetting one thing about all of this.

You want to know who feels the music more when their on stage. I just gotta say one thing.


>>>>Acid


:P

Hendrix wins

Originally Posted by: elklanderccI'm gonna continue that...

Dime>Vai>Satch>EVH

woooooo dime...that man WAS undeerrated! maybe coz he never really put his outta this world technique on display in pantera recordings. i found it funny the way he played the entire MAB dvd's worth of shred in a lot of their shows, that man was a true legend!

but i'm gonna have to say on the hendrix/EVH issue, i gave my opinion before, and like every other post here it sparked a rebuttal from another member. so can't we all agree to disagree? or put the two in celebrity deathmatch?