And now, let's talk about WOOD and FINISH

hello surfpick

That was very informative. Thanks for responding. Do you have any idea about the sonic characteristics of langka (soft jack fruit wood) or bamboo on guitar because I'm planning to purchase one either made from langka or bamboo.


what wood is lignum vitae? never heard of that one but the idea of wooden picks sounds very new to me. i've only used 3 picks- the dunlop jazz picks, alligators, or a regular dime- but never wood. how much do you sell them?

Hi,

I have never heard of Langka?

I have never heard of bamboo being used for a guitar either?
How is that done? Bamboo is hollow. Do they take a piece and steam it, to flatten it, or something?


Lignum Vitae was popular hundreds of years ago.
It was used for the 'block&tackle' and other rigging
on tall ships.

It has been used for propeller shaft bearings on modern Navy ships. It is still in use as bearings for the giant
generators on some hydroelectric operations.

It's basically a nightmare to work with..
but if you can make something with it,
it can be really magnificent.

The picks are $10 - $14 dollars.

It's a hard item to market, because we are so conditioned
to thinking of picks as a 50 cent item.
Such an important part of our sound deserves more
consideration than that though, in my opinion.

I was using a lot of different exotic woods,
making pens and knives.. when I became enamored
with the Lignum Vitae. I wondered how it might work
as a guitar pick.. and I liked the results.
I tried selling a few, to see what others thought of them
and people have kept me at it, ever since.

As quoted by the Fool:
Just a curious question, if the type of wood matters more than the grain of wood, why does an epi les paul (even if you replaced every electronics and hardware with Gibson stuff) with a mahogany body and maple top sound different than a gibson les paul that has the same mahogany back/ maple top material?

Ok here is the explanation for this... Gibsons and Epi's both use the Mohogany bodies and Maple Tops BUT the tops on the Gibsons (correct me if I am wrong I don't personally own either, but due to the price differences this would make sense) are slightly thicker and are of better grade than the Epi. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find that the Epi probably has a maple veneer top or a photo finish on it. I mean in the real world to buy a decent grade maple cap would run somewhere between 100-250 bucks depending on grade, and you can buy an Epi with a cool looking top for just a little more than that. Also, if they were exactly the same just with different parts, then why the hell is a Gibson over a grand?

There is my explanation on this...

Langka is known also known by other names such as jackfruit, nangka, and mangosteen I think.

I have no idea how they make it out of bamboo, but the folks there are very creative so they can make the most amazing things out of the most unique materials. That's why I can't wait to go there. They offer a free tour of how they make their guitars- and you can actually see them folks making one from scratch the old way.

thnx hrbndrckr. i think maybe we're paying more for a gibson because of the name too because parts aren't that expensive. but does a good quality wood make that big of a difference in tone?

with regards to the difference between nitrocellulose and polyurethane paint, there probably isnt one. im not an expert on paint, but i have restored a few classic sports cars, so i know a little.
as far as i know polyurethane is just a more modern version of nitrocellulose. they are both applied as thin layers of the base colour, followed by layers of clear laquer. polyurethane, being more modern, is tougher,more resistant to uv rays and less hazardous to use.
although they are different chemically, i dont reckon you would hear any difference.

Actually, nitrocellulose, also called celluloid, when used
for ping pong balls or guitar picks,
has an interesting past.

I touch on it in this history of picks;
http://surfpick.com/history

heh heh. I don't use picks.

Esteban? Is that you?





.

I have a Gibson Epiphone Acoustic. I love that guitar.

Here's a picture.

I found this site to be useful about building guitars. I'm sure guitar players must understand the properties of wood.

Go to section 3 about WOOD.

[Edited by iamthe_eggman on 01-24-2004 at 04:12 PM]

I bought 2 acoustics yesterday..
a used Gretsch concert grand and
a new Breedlove Atlas dreadnought.

I thought that both had solid cedar tops..
but the Gretsch site just showed that their guitar is laminated.

Here they are:

http://surfpick.com/guitars

Really looking forward to playing with these.

pricklepuss
your explanation regarding nitrocellulose vs. polyurethane makes a lot of sense. i found it enlightening- thnx. I used to think that one of the reasons that Gibsons are tonally superior and more expensive is because they used nitrocellulose while Epiphone used polyurethane- that's what those guys from stewmac got me believing when i was enquiring about finish. But you got me thinking.
If polyurethane is supposed to be an improvement of nitrocellulose and both are applied as base colours in very thin coats, I don't see how nitrocellulose should be more tonally superior. Now, I'm thinking- maybe the reason why Gibsons are more expensive is because nitrocellulose is more dangerous to apply than polyurethane. Does my theory make sense?

surfpick
thnx for that link. that's very interesting too. I didn't know that nitrocellulose was invented as a desperate substitute for ivory. as much as i love bone and ivory for my guitar, i think too much elephants have suffered enough. i just think that elephants are beautiful creatures and it would be nice if the next generation could see one live instead of seeing one in pictures and books.

dinell2
thnx for the site- i found it very helpful- that's a very nice acoustic that you got there by the way.

Originally posted by the fool
.... Now, I'm thinking- maybe the reason why Gibsons are more expensive is because nitrocellulose is more dangerous to apply than polyurethane. Does my theory make sense? ...

Gibson guitars are expensive because people are willing to pay a lot of money for them. It's as simple, and as complicated, as that.

For all their fussing about being inventive and innovative about musical styles and techniques, guitar players are among the most anal, change-fearing bunch of wimps on this planet when it comes to the guitar itself.

Gibson commands high prices based on a long-standing perception of musical excellence that, frankly, it rarely lives up to. And as long as there are people willing to pay inflated prices for Gibson guitars, there's no motivation for Gibson to improve their quality control.

Bottom line:

Find a guitar, from any manufacturer[/i], that you want to own, for a price that you're willing to pay.

Even a Gibson, if that's what you really want.

nah, i don't want a gibson anyways. i wanted to buy a guitar custom made from unusual wood made from my specs. i just got into this gibson talk because i want to have an idea how to they make their guitars and how it differs from epis because gibsons sell their guitars more expensive. It also surprises me how a lot of folks idolizes gibsons while thinking of epis as crap.

There are a lot of people who are beginning to build guitars,
hoping to build a business and become well regarded luthiers, who can charge the high prices needed to justify the time and care spent.

If you find a talented newcomer, you can often have
a custom guitar created for you at a price much lower
than they will charge once they have a reputation.

Look at their past work.
I know Frank Pirrone is beginning to make custom electric
solidbodys out of exotic woods, such as purpleheart.

Here's one he calls the Pirahna 33,
because his electronics give it 33 different voices:
http://members.localnet.com/~fpirrone/piranha.jpg

33 sounds? that's just my kind of guitar he he he.
how much does he charge?

I emailed Frank and gave a link to this thread,
so maybe he'll come here and help with questions
that I can't answer?

In other news..
I found a killer video reviewing thumbpicks.
I linked to it and accidentally erased my index page for surfpick.com !

So, I now have turned that 'video' link page into
my makeshift page, until I can rebuild.

You can see the picks that I just sent to Doug Jones.
He is starting an online magazine in about a month,
where he will have a video review of flatpicks.
Acoustic Guitar Players Magazine, is what it will be called.

thnx surfpick. i appreciate it.

Greetings, SurfPick and the fool!

Only got a minute or two for a quick post, but did scan this interesting thread. I've been exploring woods and finishes with the solidbodies that were mentioned.

Woods and finishes do matter since the whole instrument is a resonant system with its mass and density affecting both the timbre of the guitar and its sustain.

Energy in the vibrating strings is transferred to the neck and body through the nut, frets and bridge, and is fed back again into the strings.

Relative strength of the harmonics produced by the strings is altered by the characteristics of the neck and body woods, wich in turn affects the envelope and the overtones of the strings, and the resultant waveforms produced by the pickups.

We've used purpleheart, cocobolo, bubinga, maple, bloodwood, mahogany, and ash on our first 4 solidbodies. The ash model is painted a pretty metallic blueburst, but the others with their exotic hardwoods are finished with no stain, since they are already richly colored, and Tru-Oil.

We tried Danish and Tung oils and weren't satisfied. The Tru-Oil is a Birchwood and Casey gunstock finish. It is accumulating and polymerizing, so it builds up like a lacquer finish, but its feel on the neck is incredible.

My nephew, a flash guitarist visiting over the Thanksgiving holiday asked what I had sprayed on the neck to make it so smooth and stick resistant, thinking something like silicone. The answer was nothing but 3 coats of Tru-Oil and a buffing with up to 1200 grit wet/dry.

As SurfPick mentioned, these guitars all have 33 voices, with humbuck, single coil, series, parallel, and out of phase options controlled by two mini-switches and a 5 position lever switch. Concentric volume/tone keeps the control total down to a manageable 4.

The photograph link posted is the prototype, and currently looks quite different. My personal guitar is #2 and is closer to our final design, and #3 and #4 are the two current variations - one more plain, the other more elaborate in body shaping details.

Take a look at the circuits posted on the Seymour-Duncan and http://www.guitarelectronics.com Web sites, and check out the parts at Stew-Mac and Allparts to see what inspired the design of the electronics.

All I'll say is that the acoustic properties of these exotic wood sandwiches and the tonal options of the multi-voice circuit makes these the nicest sounding guitars I've had the opportunity to play. Their timbre and sustain are remarkable.

Couple that to one of SurfPick's lignum vitae creations which I've been using exclusively for months now, and the sound has gained us some local interest.

We're in the process of exploring how we might produce and sell these guitars profitably, but moving slowly at this time.

Problem is that the parts alone for these instruments run over $500, and it takes weeks to produce and finish one, so they would have to sell for thousands to return enough to justify the effort.

Frank

That's the 'catch 22'..

Even when you make a guitar worth thousands..
it takes awhile to get a reputation that tempts people to spend it with you.

When I make some money, one of the first things that I'd
like to do is commission you to create one of your
masterpieces out of my favorite woods...

Lignum Vitae
African Leadwood
Ebony

I know these woods are all heavier than water..
and it will weigh a ton..
but I play sitting down anyway most of the time.

That African Leadwood is a real trip.
The Lignum Vitae may be the world's strongest wood..
but the high oil content greatly enhances it's workability.
The shavings of fully cured wood are wet!

The African Leadwood though, is like drilling or turning granite!


I love weird wood!