Analyze this!

Originally posted by chris mood
Estudios Sencillos #7? Can't remember the exact # but there is one that's sort of simuliar to that.

I don't really know any of the names. He's has a bunch of "Estudios" along the lines of dissonance and chromatics. Cool stuff, IMO.

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
----
Chris, I'm not sure what kind of responce that was, but ok.

I wrote that to prove a point, you said that you didn't think it was that important what label you put on a chord, I disagree, I think it is one of the most important facets of theory. That label I put on that is technically correct, but it would be absurd to think that way, everybody knows that is a standard C major voicing.

I found some of your analysis to be like that, labeling standard root position major7 chords, minor 7b5, and 9th chords some absurd inversion. Other times you take inverted chords and try to explain them in root position by using uncommon alterations. Theoretically you could argue yourself correct, just like I stated w/the C major chord.

Analysis is not easy, and what Christoph wrote is nothing, a couple of bars of 4 note chord voicings. It's very tedious work, checking and rechecking, etc. Try it on a symphony sometime....or a sax soli within a big band score where the chords are changing by the 16th note. It's a lot of work, and like everything else takes a lot of practice to get good at.

Originally posted by Christoph

though, NTM.

Hey, here's a chord.

2
3
2
0
x
x

I call it E7add9sus4/D.

I usually refer to that chord as Bminor9/D
or sometimes F13b9/D ;)

Do you remember when me, you, and griphon had our first big disagreement back where someone had to finally come in a say that each one of us were arguing about different things?? I think that was about chord spellings and I explained the difference between labeling one chord one way is very important to theoretical explanation of key. You disagreed by saying there is no difference between an Gb major chord and an F# major chord. If you recall this, I am hardly the person you describe with that post.

Yes I did say that and here's why. Because the whole song section is completely atonal, so there is no right or wrong way to name a chord. F# could be Gb, because there is no definitive key. A major 6th chord could be a minor 7th or vice versa.

My bad and the reason why my chords are labeled as such is because I was trying to link a Atonal chord progression and try to make sense of it in a diatonic structure. To do that I need to write them that way, the absurdness of the names of the chords is equal to absurdness of a chord having a relationship to the next in the chord progression. Because the simple chords looked as random as spit balls on a chalkboard, I enjoyed the challenge of trying to make it make sense even though my efforts did fail. I should have never tried since I knew my efforts would be folly.

Although my efforts did fail to make it tonal, I think the explanation of the simple structure within the chord progression made much sense. Aside for the voicing of several of the chords which would be impossible to make fit.

Maybe the question about the song Christoph wrote should have been what chords are these rather than what analysis can you give for this tune. Although the chords I did write where quite humorous. :)

For sh*ts and giggles, here’s my second analysis of the chord progression:
Fm7(#11)
E+sus4/F
Am(+5)/E
Esus4(+5)
F#sus2(+5)/C#
G7(b5)/C#
Asus4(+5)/B
Asus2(+5)/B
Am(+5)/F
E+sus4/F
C+/B
B6sus4

Originally posted by Christoph


|-------0-----------0-----------0-----------0--------|
|-----1---1-------1---1-------1---1-------1---1------|
|---2-------2---2-------2---2-------2---2-------2----|
|-4-----------3-----------4-----------3--------------|
|----------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------|

Aminor6/F# (i) Fmaj7 (6)

|-------1-----------0-----------1-----------0--------|
|-----1---1-------1---1-------1---1-------1---1------|
|---2-------2---2-------2---2-------2---2-------2----|
|-2-----------2-----------2-----------2--------------|
|----------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------------------|


Fmaj7/E (6) Amin/E (i)*basically nothing more happening here than a chromatic bass line, the 6 chord in harmonic minor would normally resolve to the 5, does so in the bass (nice job Christoph!).



|----------------------------------------------------|
|-------2-----------0-----------2-----------0--------|
|-----0---0-------0---0-------0---0-------0---0------|
|---3-------3---3-------3---3-------3---3-------3----|
|-4-----------4-----------4-----------4--------------|
|----------------------------------------------------|


o.k., 2 ways of looking at this next pt..1)he switches to a A dominant tonality (C# in bass w/#5) or 2) he uses a b5 sub for the i chord (Eb9/Db with the root and 5th omitted). I kinda like the 1st expl. better, so I'll go w/that. The 2nd chord would just be A dominant #5 w/the doubled 3rd exchanged for the 9th.


|----------------------------------------------------|
|-------3-----------0-----------3-----------0--------|
|-----2---2-------2---2-------2---2-------2---2------|
|---3-------3---3-------3---3-------3---3-------3----|
|-2-----------2-----------2-----------2--------------|
|----------------------------------------------------|


A dominant is the 5/4 (d minor), Bminor 7b5 is just a sub for d minor (B D F A). Bminor7b5 is the ii chord of A harmonic / natural minor. Christoph changes the B tonality to a dominant9th chord, which would then be 5/5.



|----------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------1-----------------------1--------|
|-------2---------2---2---------2---------2---2------|
|-----3---3-----2-------2-----3---3-----2-------2----|
|---3-------3---------------3-------3----------------|
|-1-----------1-----------1-----------1--------------|


Instead of going directly to the 5 chord he resolves to the tri tone sub of B: F, which is also the 6 chord in harmonic minor, which either resolves by half step down to the 5 or subs for the 1. Nice Move!


|----------------------------------------------------|
|-------1-----------0-----------1-----------0--------|
|-----1---1-------1---1-------1---1-------1---1------|
|---2-------2---2-------2---2-------2---2-------2----|
|-2-----------2-----------2-----------2--------------|
|----------------------------------------------------|


Here he resolves it to the E (5 chord), tri tone motion in the bass ( alittle repetitive at this pt. would have rather heard chromatic half step resolution downward) adds sharp 5 in melody resolving to natural 5 for some nice tension and release.
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[edit]**fixed the table width problem**[/edit]

[Edited by Christoph on 10-28-2003 at 01:29 AM]

boy I really F-upped this thread. I was having a conversation w/someone the other day and they brought up the "caged system" for voicing chords on the guitar. I forget what it is and I remember you explaining it a long time ago. Can you refresh me.

I think the "CAGED" system has more to do with scales. There's the three note per string method for playing modes/scales, and there's the Caged method, whereby you play the whole scale pattern in the space of four frets. It's based upon the five modes created from the notes C-A-G-E-D in the C major scale. Lydian and Locrian are left out as roots.

For example the aeolian mode in the three note system would be -



|-----------------------------------|
|-------------------------6-8-10----|
|-------------------5-7-9-----------|
|-------------5-7-9-----------------|
|-------5-7-8-----------------------|
|-5-7-8-----------------------------|



And the Caged version would be -



|-----------------------------5----|
|-----------------------5-6-8------|
|-----------------4-5-7------------|
|-------------5-7------------------|
|-------5-7-8----------------------|
|-5-7-8----------------------------|



Just different fingerings. Three-note per string is better for speed, and Caged is better if you're trying to play within a certain chord voicing.

For the record, here's my official analysis of the progression.

F#m7b5 - Fmaj7 - Am6/E - Am/E - Dbdim5 - Db7dim5 - Bm7b5 - B7b5 - F - Fmaj7 - Eaug5/B - E/B

As for keys and all that, **** I dunno . . .

By quick glance I can tell you have a couple of mistakes, the Db can't be diminished becuase you have the F voiced in the chord, that's a major 3rd. The B7b5 chord at the end? Just looks like standard root pos. B9 to me, I don't see a b5.

Sorry, my bag....your right, I went back and checked the tab, it's not what I thought. That is B9b5 ( no 3rd, so could be either maj/min).

Good analysis chris. I see it now. Also, yesterday I was in a pretty bad mood. I was at work and they were giving me sh*t about the same time I was posting here. My apologies, I shouldn't have ever bothered posting yesterday. It was just one of those days.

Originally posted by chris mood
That is B9b5 ( no 3rd, so could be either maj/min).

Where are you getting the 9th from?

The CAGED system, when applied to chording is about using 5 fundamental chord shapes to play chords all over the neck. You can play any chord using the C form x, 3, 2, 0, 1, 0; A form x, 0, 2, 2, 2, 0; G form 3, 2, 0, 0, 0, 3; E form 0, 2, 2, 1, 0, 0; or the D form x, x, 0, 2, 3, 2 (and the respective minor forms of A, E, and D).

What's important about the CAGED system is where your hand is at the chord change and which root would be best for you to play. Say you start on an Am, E form (5, 7, 7, 5, 5, 5). Next chord is a Dm. How should you play it? Go to the open position D form? No, that's too far of a jump. The closest voicing would be 5th fret A string. Which in the CAGED system has a fifth string root, preferably with the index finger on around the 5th fret? The Am form, so you'd play Dm using the Am form (x, 5, 7, 7, 6, 5). Makse sense? It's all about a method of thinking about bar chords.

Originally posted by Christoph

Originally posted by chris mood
That is B9b5 ( no 3rd, so could be either maj/min).

Where are you getting the 9th from?

My bag, I @#$% tab!!

LOL . . . why do you always say "my bag"? I assume you mean "your bad"?

Yeah, I spent like 5 minutes looking at the chord, trying to figure out why you were calling it a ninth. Looked like B7b5 to me.

My Bag is just East Coast slang for "my fault" or "I F$%%@# up".

Originally posted by noticingthemistake
I was at work and they were giving me sh*t about the same time I was posting here.

-LOL- Don't you hate that! Your at work, trying to spend some quality time on Guitar Tricks and everybodys' like "Hey Notice, stop @#$%#$%^ around!"

Used to happen to me all the time. But now that I'm unemployed, I don't have those pesky problems.

Are you done college now?

Yeah, I graduated just in time for an economic downturn.