Modes again

OK, it seems to me that there is one position for modes if you start with Ionian(c major) obviously all natural notes. If you move to Dorian(d major) all natural notes. If you keep moving from mode to mdoe keeping in natural there is only one position.So does this mean there is only one position to learn, you just have to know what key your in?If so, whats a good way to know what key your in for which mode? Most scales start on the root note, but Ionian for example, can start on the open E-string. Thanks again for any help.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!! (rant over).

Read this recent thread in its entirety (click below). Click on the links that I and others provided, and then come back to this thread with any other questions you might have. I understand that modes are confusing (and that there's a lot of misleading and simplistic info out there also) , but comprehensive explanations are available - the zentao site is one of them.

http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6513&pagenumber=1

A mode is nothing more then starting and stopping a parent scale (major/Ionian, Melodic Minor, Penta, Etc..)on a note other then its' root.

Understanding how to utulize this concept to it's maxium ability when creating music is a bit more in depth.

So to answer your question: yes, all modes can be played in 1 pos., but you would definitely be limiting yourself by not learning them in every posiyion possible on the fretboard.

Originally posted by Tele Master
So does this mean there is only one position to learn, you just have to know what key your in?

No. There are many positions for each scale. For everytime the root note appears on the fretboard, that's how many positions there are. You should at least know the positions that start on the top 2 stings (E and A), at least. Go back and look at the previous thread I replied to for ways to practice them.

Originally posted by Tele Master
If so, whats a good way to know what key your in for which mode?

When you're playing a mode, the key signature is usually written in the parent key. Like if you were playing D dorian, the key signature would mostly likely be C major. The only exception which is rare is when the root (of the mode) is matched with the key. Like C lydian over the key over C major (chord progression). Although you have to watch for the chord progression cause there can be some tension with come chords.

Originally posted by Tele Master
Most scales start on the root note, but Ionian for example, can start on the open E-string.

All scales start on the root. C Ionian can't start with an open E and still be called Ionian. That is E Phrygian. The root is the most important note, it shows you how to use that scale. Match the root of the mode (scale) with the key note or root of the chord, that's all. Simply application. This is why you learn modes seperately from their apparent scales.

Note: When you practice modes you shoould always keep the same root. Like C Ionian, C dorian, C phrygian, and so on. NOT C Ionian, D dorian, E phrygian. This will help you seperate their differences and end all the confusion.

If you played all modes of a certain note in one position you'll end up with a chromatic scale.
You should memorize keys , learn the cycle of fifth & the cycle of fourth by memorizing the accidentals in each one.

Now wait a minute , which ionian scale do you mean CAN start on open E string ? If you mean C ionian , I'm afraid you need to start learning what's meant by modes all over again.

BTW, D Dorian is C major not D major.

noticngthemistake: I think we may be getting closer LOL. I still strongly recommend the zentao site to EVERYBODY to check out (and make sure you read all of the sections beginning with the intoduction).

Click link to begin. http://www.zentao.com/guitar/modes/index.html

SLY's advice re: memorize keys & the cycles of 4th's & 5th's is essential. Learning how to harmonize the major scale (to start) and stacking 3rds to create chords and chord extensions would also be part of a thorough musical understanding. Trying to take shortcuts will only shortchange yourself in the future.


Maybe this will help (maybe not). When you go through the major scale "derived" modes (i.e. C Ionian, D Dorian etc.) what this does is give you a way of applying a familiar scale (C Ionian) as a SCALE for DIFFERENT keys. C Ionian is played over a Cmaj chord progression. D Dorian is played over a Dmin chord progression, Ephrygian is played over an Emin chord progression etc. - see "zentao" for the modes and some related chord progressions. It can't be stressed more strongly - it is the underlying CHORDS and the TONAL CENTER that determine the mode(s) that can apply.

I probably made some kind of error above - I told you modes are confusing !

P.S. E Ionian will start on the open E string (aka the root).

"noticingthemistake" thanks for that last "note" you put in, that cleared it up a bit.

OK, one more question. If you have say C Ionian and you move to a different key( but stay in ionian) do the patterns stay the same, just everything move up a fret.

Like pentatonic scales, the pattern stays the same just moves 1st position because of key.

Yep. Scales are just patterns (intervals) starting from the root. John's link on this thread had a list on the patterns. Now on guitar the visual patterns can change. So watch when moving to a root on a different string. Like if you were to play an A major scale from the 5th fret on the low E string, opposed to if you were to play an A major scale from the 7th fret on a D string. The visual pattern will change within the octave because of the way the B and high E strings are tuned compared to the other strings. You know how you tune your A string by playing the 5th fret on the low E, and so on. But once you get to tuning the B string, it's the 4th fret. Anyways here's how it looks on the guitar.

A major scale from 5th fret on low E string.

e:-------------------
b:-------------------
g:-------------------
d:------------4-6-7--
a:------4-5-7--------
e:--5-7--------------

A major scale from 7th fret on D string.

e:--------------------
b:------------7-9-10--
g:------6-7-9---------
d:--7-9---------------
a:--------------------
e:--------------------

I know this wasn't exactly what you were asking but I wasn't sure if you think of scales as visual patterns or not. But anyways if the root consists on the same string, yeah it's the same visual pattern. But if it (root)changes string, watch for needed compensation. Hopefully that didn't confuse you.

The pattern of a scale is always the same whether the root changes or not. When the root changes the pattern stays the same, just the root (starting point)changes.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 05-15-2003 at 11:27 PM]

If you can't play it, you can't hear it. There are so few musicians, that can randomly sing modes off the top of their heads. In 30 years I've never met anyone that could sing modes without instrumental training. It may be possible, but I've not seen nor heard it. Remember, when practising scales on the guitar, attempt to "sing" them as you go or play along. This will create another world, and options, and is especially useful in college type courses. A very major lesson I learned, fortunately early, in my musical journey. Listen to a truck horn, not my singing.

Guitar, and all other instruments, is a physical process first. The physical is controlled by the hippocampus of the brain. That process is converted to the intellectual processes of our brains (right and/or left). Both are ongoing or at the moment.
Get the physical first. The brain will handle the rest. Everyone has heard of the "lightbulb" moment, or it just clicked. Get the physical first. There are many views to learn modes. Learning what is, will clear up, what ain't.

Originally posted by griphon2
If you can't play it, you can't hear it.

I think of this quote being the other way around. "If you can't hear it, you can't play it.". You will hear alot of musicians use the quote, "I just play what I want to hear". So you are hearing it first, and the key to being a successful (not exactly rich and famous, but the musician you want to be) musician is by learning to play exactly what you want to hear. But yeah singing along with scales is probably the best training you could possibaly do.

People can sing in modes and not be musicians. Take people who just hum their favorite songs yet they can't play any musical instruments. Everyone has had experiences with different scales, although those who learn those modes are better at reproducing and understanding their sound. Everything has to do with the Ear, not so much knowledge. Untrained modes (scales) are just hazy but they are there. If you can hear it you can play (sing) it.

If you can't play it, you can't hear it. I have a student, and incredible singer, but can't play anything. All is done by hear, quite incredibly. The best proof to what you are hearing, is to be able to play it. If you don't have the physical correctly ingrained in the mind, nothing can be proven correct. It's backward logic or deconstructive logic. An example, if you are a beginning mechanical dart player and can't add, you're in trouble. One must know how to throw, first. Next, one needs to be able to add three or four fold to win or keep your bets. Two different skills and two different learning skills.

It's certainly OK, to say "play what you hear.", but it's entirely another to prove it. I've read many items on this forum the bear me truthful. Music is a listening art with many and more asundries. The bulwark of our art as guitar players, is listening and then the physical. Most of us, are not singers. Singing your scales and bass cycles (chord progressions), is "life" for a productive and prosperous living. My student came to me with the admission of finally understanding my point. "Lightbulb moment." To prove what you hear is true, be able to play it. To prove "you" are not in error, play it.

I cannot stress enough, horrible singer or not, sing everything!! you attempt.

Cool and absolutely true! :)

Unless your a dabber, and you just fool around until you come up with something cool. Nothing wrong with this way. Their is alot of good music that came from that.

Finishing line is you hear it first, then you reproduce it on your instrument then prove to the listener you hear it by playing it.