Kazaa, mp3, copyrights, etc.

I am curious to know what the general stance is of people on this site regarding mp3s and file sharing using P2P software such as Kazaa (or Napster, RIP).

Personally, I used to be heavily against file sharing, primarily because I thought it was illegal to copy music. I later found out that, at least in Canada, it is legal to copy CDs, and there is even a special levy on recordable media (CD-Rs, MDs, blank tapes) which is collected by a governing body and then distributed to the record labels/artists as they see fit. After learning this, I became much less opposed to copying music, and learned that, again at least in Canada, there don't seem to be any definite rules regarding file sharing via the internet. However, I have yet to download more than 20 mp3s (including probably 10 from Napster that I have since deleted from my computer), and still favour buying CDs over burning them.

How about you guys? Do you care that by burning vs. buying you are basically taking money out of the pockets of your favourite rock stars? Or do you think it's justified because they're already rich? If you download, do you end up buying anyways (like all the proponents of file sharing tell us)?

I am against pirating anything (that is copying it and selling it) however I’m also against advocating behaviors that will get this site into trouble.

So, the following is my personal opinion and only my opinion !

As far as file sharing goes, well why not !

The record companies have taken everyone to the cleaners (record buying public, the artists who they have signed, any one who will listen to then) for far to long and now they are paying the price.

If they all die a horrible death impaled upon their own swards, well good and about time too ! Their are plenty of ways for musicians to make money and sell their songs over the internet (if they choose) that are a lot more profitable than signing your life, copy right, performing license away to a record company who will feed you back 5% of what you have earned for them after all the overheads have cleared !

Their are a lot of people in the music business who are unhappy at the moment and , surprise surprise, most of them are the bean counters that have brought the industry to its knees and have no interest in anything artistic.

Personally I will laugh heartily if the old dragons die !

Just my 2c

Hey, good point, Doc. This is not meant to be a thread supporting/denouncing file sharing (in some countries, aka "pirating").

I am not trying to get anyone (including guitartricks) in trouble here; I'm just trying to get a feel for what fellow musicians think of the whole mp3 phenomenon and its impact on the music industry, their outlook on their music career, their objectives as a guitarist, etc.

If there are any HFA agents lurking around these forums, please ignore this thread and follow the link below:

www.kazaa.com

it has its good abd bad side, for the poor teens of america(although i guess if you have a computer your not to poor) you cant afford Cds ;), i look at it, if i like the artist i will buy there cd even if i have downloaded all the songs. if not and im not to fond of the bands ill probley just deleate the songs anyhow, i think there should be something done to stop it beacuse it dose hurt the artists out there today. and if im going to be an artist of tommrow i dont want people stealing my songs.

Their is also another positive side to file sharing and that is publicity, that is "What the F**K do you think you're doing" Madonna was doing ! Unfortunately the subsequent attack on her web site was also more publicity !

With a little intelligence an artist can turn the whole thing to their advantage and I repeat, still earn more from their songs than they would signed to a record label ! I’m not planning going via a record label when I’m ready to go... hell no ! I’m going to go 100% Internet !

I agree with file sharing.

I think that you have the right to ear as much music as you want...
Music is culture. You should not pay the money that you pay to have it...
I have the musical culture,the tastes and opinions that I have due to the CD copying and file sharing...
And, yet, I buy the Cds of my favourite bands.
You should not spend lots of money in cds/artists which you don't know or you will not ear.

And remenber that we are talking about music... think about software and it's price...

Long live Kazaa and file sharing and cd recorders... :p

I agree with file sharing as well via kazzaa, etc. It has opened up me to many bands I would not normally even hear about. I'll dwnload songs and will usually buy the album if I like it. I usually find bands I have never heard of from the live365 player window...dwnload the song when i like it..visit web pages (Where you can usually order the cd's...most of my tastes range in the shredders to the european heavy metal bands)

off to playing i go.

I'm on both sides of the fence on this one depending on whether I'm thinking as a musician or a 'listener'.
It pisses me off totally when people say they download songs to 'sample' them and then they'll 'go out and buy the album if they like it'. It's such total bull. If you can get an entire album off one of the alt.binaries.mp3 newsgroups, you're not going to go out and spend $20 for the CD when you've already got the thing.
It also pisses me off when people launch attacks on people asking for pirated software online, but don't think twice about downloading MP3's.
As far as the record companies are concerned...the more you steal out of their pockets, the less money they're going to give artists that they sign...the less money they're going to pay to help you tour...less albums, less signed bands. In the long run you're just shooting yourself in the foot.

Now the other side of the coin...
I download at least 20 songs a night from all the various MP3 newsgroups...burn a CD in the morning and listen to it during the day. If I like what's on it, I keep it and listen to it again. If I don't like it, it gets tossed in the fireplace.
There's a part of me that realizes the irony here, but I've got absolutely no other way of learning mixing techniques, how songs are written, guitar solos, mastering etc etc.. unless I can listen to as much 'stuff' as I can. And there ain't no way I can afford $20 a day for CD's and radio sucks the big Celine.
On the other hand even though it's ripping off artists and fellow musicians, I haven't paid for a CD in over 2 years and don't plan on ever buying one again. What's the point when I can do a REQ: Dark Side of the Moon in any newsgroup and in a couple of days, somebody will not only upload the album but post studio outtakes, live versions, remastered versions etc etc.. and you can pick and choose exactly what songs you want on one CD.
Then again, on yet other hand...if I spent a year working on my own album and the next day saw the whole thing posted online, I'd be really pissed off.

I dont think file sharing is the big problem - i think the problem is, that music has been degraded to fast-food. A cheap mass product that is good for making money. Recording industries have encountered a drawback of about 60% in sales lately - you can for sure not trace that all back to mp3. Its the quality. Peeps seem to slowly get sick of whats goin on. It has been the same for years now - there has been nothing new - the same old crap all day long on TV and Radio.
Maybe this is the point where music industry has to rethink its policy and maybe start to sell real music again. It hasnt done that for the least 30 years now...

I'll be happy when rap is finally in the grave. Not to mention so called 'alternative' bands with guys who only know basic open chords and use a lead singer with a fake British accent.
The nice thing about the internet is that musicians like myself can finally publish our own works to a worldwide audience. The drawback is that every other guy with a computer thinks he's a musician these days and you not only have to compete with all the crappy amateur stuff, you now have to compete with this mentality of people who think that music should be free.
As far as crappy music goes... nobody has the desire to really learn an instrument anymore because they can do everything digitally and copy & paste everything.
There's so many choices for kids in terms of entertainment that most of em don't do what we did when we were younger.... sit around in a bedroom for hours trying to get away from your parents and the only thing you've got to do is listen to one of your 4 or 5 albums. You listen to em until you wear them out and know every note. You sit down with your guitar and play for hours because there's absolutely nothing else to do.
Now it's instant gratification. Download 100 songs, listen to them once and then throw them out and start again & to top it off, it doesn't cost a cent.
Get tired of music and surf the internet or watch 400 channels on TV... download some pirated software and compose your own rap tunes then play Nintendo all night.
When a teen finally goes to hang out with friends, there's no incentive anymore to get together and just hang, maybe smoke a few J's and listen to music looking for all the hidden meanings in the latest Pink Floyd album. Now if you want to know all the secrets behind Dark Side of the Moon, all you have to do is surf the internet.

One thing that has interested me lately is Apple and their involvement in the music industry.
The idea of making songs available for $1 per download or a monthly fee makes it easier for guys like me to someday be able to post my own tunes online....supply a lo-fi version for listening and then offer a CD quality download for $1. This attitude that MP3's should be free to download and freely infringe on copyrights has got to end first though.

Originally posted by Digit

It pisses me off totally when people say they download songs to 'sample' them and then they'll 'go out and buy the album if they like it'.

This is just not true, I know, cos I do it ! What It prevents id me spending 20 bucks on an album I hate !

30 years ago everyone thought that audio tape would flatten the music industry and guess what....it was just another storm in a tee cup!


[Edited by Dr_simon on 05-13-2003 at 07:34 AM]

Hey, TK, you're right; I forgot to mention that copying CDs is legal in Canada, but only for personal use. An interesting little illustration of this was made on an official Canadian Copyright Board website, where it said that if you were to rob a CD store and take a bunch of CDs and copy them, you would be charged with robbery, not piracy.

Check out these links:

Copyright Board of Canada website re: levy on recordable media

A good explanation of the Canadian copyright levy

[Edited by iamthe_eggman on 05-13-2003 at 08:23 AM]

Hummm, I can hear a difference between 16 bit and 24 bit at a sample rate of 41 KHz, (CDs are encoded at 16 Bit).

Record companies have been promising for years to go up to 24bit and never have, just like they have been promising that the price of CDs will come down as more places make them.

Well now they have !!! Tee Heee !

As for mp3s well, they are better than taping songs off the radio or the TV which is what I used to do as a kid !

To a guy who grew up listening to 45 rpm records on a mono Lloyds turntable, even 128kbps MP3's sound great.

Originally posted by trendkillah

Originally posted by Dr_simon
Record companies have been promising for years to go up to 24bit and never have.

Not to mention that cd-players would have to be changed also, which most people probably wouldn't go for anyway.

DVD players work at 24 bit 96 K Hz sample rate so it is not the lack of something to play stuff on !!!

quite frankly it's the whole corporate music business machine that is pushing people away from buying CD's and forcing them to download MP3.
Think about this. The average album MIGHT have 3-5 cuts that are single material that most people would care about listening to. The rest is just filler.
In my area the average cost of a CD is $19.99.
When I first started buying CD's in 87-88 or so, CD players and the media in general were very expensive, but the average CD was about $15.00.
You can not tell me that since media has become cheaper, that the cost of an average CD needs to be 5 dollars more.
It sure as hell can't be the fact that the artists are making more money at an average of about 10 cents or so a copy on average.
I know for a fact I can right now go and get 1000 good quality CD's with jewel cases, logo screening on the CD instead of the paper, 3 page insert, for about 1200-1500 bucks, or roughly $1.50 a CD. I am also sure I would get one hell of a break if I wanted to make 100,000 or more.
SO... Let's just say this...
$1.50 a CD to duplicate.
Let's say I spend 100 grand in the studio, divided between each CD it makes it a grand total of...
$2.50 for EACH CD if I make 100,000 copies
Spend 10 grand or so for photography and layout...
$2.60 a CD
Other misc stuff...
$3.00 a CD
Paying the employees and such
$5.00 a CD being liberal considering this is just ONE band...
Now I realize a few of my numbers could be off, BUT I ain't off by that much.
NOW for distribution...
I have half a million into 100,000 CD's
Distributing to record stores at $7.50 a CD I make $250,000 plus my $500,000 back.
Record stores marking up 100% would still only put the CD at $15.00, and since they deal in bulk, they are probably only getting a 40-50% markup. So guess who is making all the extra cash......
Not the artist.....
Not the employees barly making minimum wage....

Also who the hell wants to spend 20 bucks on a CD to only like 3 songs....
I'm not gonna spend 20 bucks on a CD to learn 3 songs, when I can get those songs in a good enough sample bitrate to be able to learn it to go and gig it the next weekend....

So in closing, if the artist wants there dime, email me and let me know and I will send it...
But I don't think I wanna make some rich **** a little richer when the product isn't as good as it used to be.

Whew my fingers are tired now, and my brain hurts...

This topic is covered in the current issue of MIX magazine in an almost un- bias way however one thing is clear file sharing is here to say and I for one think it will be a force that pushes for positive change !

Me, I’m with hairbndrckr on this one.

I also think his comments about Ed Roman are very funny, I have never dealt with the guy but I have seen his web site ! I also wonder weather his opinion of PRS is at all jaded by the Quicksilver guitars he is trying to push (cos he maybe makes more money selling them than PRS !)… coincidence, well you decide !

I agree with the whole file sharing thing - reason: like the previous post, the artists aren't getting a fair cut from the sales. Sure, if I like a band I buy the CD - but if I'm just after tunes, sharing is the way to go.

Bands make their money by gigging, merchandise and the coin that the company throws their way to keep them on their label - It's like gas prices - if they can get it they will - I think that once costs get more competitive and come down, this whole thing will become a moot point.

D>

Hairbndrckr: I think that your argument would probably convince a lot of people, but I don't think that it is fundamentally sound. Since when has the amount of profit that a company or person makes on a product had anything to do with whether we buy or steal it? Do you mean to say that you don't buy jewellery because of the 200% markup over actual cost? Or how about pizza? Someone in the business told me that there's a 500% markup - does this mean that we should find a way to get pizza without paying for it?

I do understand what you mean, though, that it doesn't seem fair that the record companies are the ones getting rich off of the whole deal. Still, Bill Gates is a billionaire, and yet, we don't expect Windows to be free.

Anyways, now you know my stance on the whole mp3 deal. I'm not against it in that I can check out a CD beforehand to see whether it's any good, or I can just get a couple of songs from a CD that I wouldn't want to own. However, if it was possible, I would gladly pay for those 1 or 2 songs...

With regards to the quality, it's true that it's poorer, but I think it's come a long way from when Napster was born. I remember that mp3s used to have the worst high ends (cymbals sounded like water splashes), but I haven't really noticed it in a while. And, if you listen to music on the radio, you probably realize that it's possible to enjoy music without pristine sound quality (although it is much more satisfying to listen to CD quality when it's absolutely cranked!).

I hear what your saying iamthe_eggman, but unlike pizza, you're not going to pay 12 bucks for a large 3 topping and eat 2 pieces and ignore the rest...(or at least I can't), and with windows...since it's in most computers you buy anyways you usually don't have much of a choice. BTW he hasn't been able to stop windows piracy either.

My point is... Record companies make plenty of profit not to have to gouge us to make an extra buck or so. Not to mention when the comsumer bites back by saying "Hey...why should I spend 20 bucks to buy the cd when I could buy a 100 blanks for 30 and burn my own from KaZaa?" They want to cry "Wahhhhh we didn't make our extra 20 million this last quarter...Let's tell the artists it comes out of their end and get them to push to stop file sharing..." You see who is REALLY getting screwed here...

If they could drop prices of CD's to $15.00 they would get more people coming back to buying them, artists wouldn't have to live on the road for 2 years to try and recoup losses from file sharing, and peace and love would flow throughout the world like sweet,sweet honey from the hive...