Two guitars and muddy sound.


bouncee
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Joined: 01/18/20
Posts: 26
bouncee
Registered User
Joined: 01/18/20
Posts: 26
03/31/2021 1:28 am

Trying to learn different chord voicings and I struggle with a few things.

Looking at a fret board chart there are so many voicings and possible ways to play a chord. I likely do not need to know all of this so what are the most common voicings and chords I should learn? (not sure I express myself correctly, partly due to my poor english skills and partly because I am new to music theory so I could be using wrong terms)

So the G major I know as open chord, and as an E shaped barre chord root on G (thrid fret) and A shaped on 10th fret.

I also know the triad(?) out of that E shaped G. And I know an inverted version of that. Like in the diagram below. And a D shaped G on the 7th and 8th fret. And an inversion og G major from the barre shape, on the forth and fifth fret.

These are the same for other major chords. And those "half barre chords" and the D shape are also movable to create other chords. And I can flatten the third for minor chords.

1: What other shapes should I learn? I see pro players using "jazzy chords", like the movable 9th chords and 13th chords. But I don't know when to use it. Or if there are other smart shapes I should learn that are more usable?

2: And when should I use the inverted chords? Like when I am practicing with the band and we are two guitars. Will inverted chords or different chord vocing help to keep the sound clean and not muddy things up?

3: We are all beginners and have played for less then 2 years. Often we end up playing the same chords when we jam or we are covering songs. I don't really like how it sounds.

We play old rock and some grunge covers. None of us know how to arrange a song so that is why I guess the two guitars ends up playing the same chords.

Btw. Does anyone have tips on how to get clean sounding barre chords when using "thumb over" ? I have tried everything I can think of to get the strings to ring out clean, changed angels on fingers, tried various angles on the wrist and I still struggle. Even after a month of having thumb over barre chords as a five minute daily exercise.

More often the not I can't get the first string to ring out cleanly. I don't struggle with full F E shaped barre chord, nor with "half F barre chord" barring first and second string at fret one. But when I try to use thumb over barre chords I can't get a clean sound. And I would like to find a way to use that so I can get my fingers some rest if I play and practice multipe songs in a row that uses several barre chords. If I could swap between E shaped barre chords and thumb over barre chords I would likely be able to practice longer without feeling tired or even get a little pain.


# 1
ChristopherSchlegel
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Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,408
ChristopherSchlegel
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Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,408
03/31/2021 11:56 am
Originally Posted by: bouncee

I likely do not need to know all of this so what are the most common voicings and chords I should learn?[/quote][p]That depends on what style of music you want to play. It sounds like you have a good handle on the basics: open chords, barre chords & the inversion D shape, which is really part of a barre C. Next I would start to isolate parts of those into smaller voicings.

Instead of the full barre chord, play these.

|--3-------------|

|--3--3----------|

|--4--4--4-------|

|------5--5------|

|----------5-----|

|-----------------|

Instead of the full C barre, play these.

|--7--------------|

|--8--8-----------|

|--7--7--7-------|

|------9--9------|

|---------10-----|

|-----------------|

Originally Posted by: bouncee1: What other shapes should I learn? I see pro players using "jazzy chords", like the movable 9th chords and 13th chords. But I don't know when to use it. Or if there are other smart shapes I should learn that are more usable?[/quote]

You use those when you desire the sound of them. I have tutorials on extended harmony chords (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, & variations).

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1166

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1185

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1195

Originally Posted by: bouncee2: And when should I use the inverted chords?

When you desire the sound of them. This is going to require a lot of experimenting & listening. It also helps to listen to & learn the songs of artists you like to discover how to recreate the sounds they made that you like.

[quote=bouncee]Like when I am practicing with the band and we are two guitars. Will inverted chords or different chord vocing help to keep the sound clean and not muddy things up?

It can help to sound more full, or to clearly distinguish the parts from one another. But a lot of this is also going to be the result of volume & tone. And what your partner is playing.

Consider that you are playing some interesting, different voicing of a chord in a different area of the fretboard than your partner. If your tone is too loud or distorted, then it's not going to be heard clearly. If your partner is baning away on a full barre chord, basically taking up all the sonic space, it's not going to matter much what you do.

The point here is that it has to be a team effort. Everyone has to be aware of the overall goal of making sure all the instruments have their own sonic space in which to be heard clearly.

[quote=bouncee]Does anyone have tips on how to get clean sounding barre chords when using "thumb over" ?

Start with a solid sounding F chord shape. Then add your thumb. Or start with just your index finger barring the E & B strings & the thumb on the low E, then try to add your other fingers. Or just use full barre chords.

Hope that helps!


Christopher Schlegel
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# 2
bouncee
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Joined: 01/18/20
Posts: 26
bouncee
Registered User
Joined: 01/18/20
Posts: 26
03/31/2021 1:11 pm
Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegel

That depends on what style of music you want to play. It sounds like you have a good handle on the basics: open chords, barre chords & the inversion D shape, which is really part of a barre C. Next I would start to isolate parts of those into smaller voicings.

Instead of the full barre chord, play these.

|--3-------------|

|--3--3----------|

|--4--4--4-------|

|------5--5------|

|----------5-----|

|-----------------|

Instead of the full C barre, play these.

|--7--------------|

|--8--8-----------|

|--7--7--7-------|

|------9--9------|

|---------10-----|

|-----------------|

[/quote]

I think at least the first one you put down I already marked in the image, I tried to make the various chords stand out by using different colors, if you look at the barre chord G, the "short barre" is only red dots, while the full barre chords additional dots are two colors. Same for the D shaped G and the inverted one.

the last one of yours I don't understand. Is it the inverted G og D shaped G? I will try to figure it out.

Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegel

You use those when you desire the sound of them. I have tutorials on extended harmony chords (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, & variations).[/quote][p]

Will have a look. Thank you.

Originally Posted by: ChristopherSchlegelWhen you desire the sound of them. This is going to require a lot of experimenting & listening. It also helps to listen to & learn the songs of artists you like to discover how to recreate the sounds they made that you like.[/quote]

Well I am a huge John Mayer fan, but that does not do me any good. He is so great I am too intimmidated to even try to sit down and learn what he plays. That is pro elite game all the way.

I guess that's partly why we stick to play more of the classic rock, more straight and not too complicated so it kind of works out even for our level. I guess I start with small steps and try it out while jamming to tracks from like Petty, maybe Stones or Nirvana.

[quote=ChristopherSchlegel]

It can help to sound more full, or to clearly distinguish the parts from one another. But a lot of this is also going to be the result of volume & tone. And what your partner is playing.

Consider that you are playing some interesting, different voicing of a chord in a different area of the fretboard than your partner. If your tone is too loud or distorted, then it's not going to be heard clearly. If your partner is baning away on a full barre chord, basically taking up all the sonic space, it's not going to matter much what you do.

The point here is that it has to be a team effort. Everyone has to be aware of the overall goal of making sure all the instruments have their own sonic space in which to be heard clearly.

[p]

We try to differenciate the sound of the gitars, using pedals, maybe different pickups etc.I liked the "own sonic space". That kind of pin points it.

But I guess what will still be an issue is the lack of knowledge of how arrange a song. How to divide a song between two guitars. Have you like seen the Mayer and Urban youtube of them covering the Don't let me down by the beatles? Well they know their shit. Maybe I need to study theory to get some understanding of how to arrange music? By all means, I don't expect us to sound anything like they do, it was more of a homage to the way they split the song between them. I think maybe it is called call and response? Man I wish there was music camp for adults. We are all more or less at the same level of musical understanding and skills, or lack of skills, so no one can steer the ship.

[quote=ChristopherSchlegel][quote=bouncee]Does anyone have tips on how to get clean sounding barre chords when using "thumb over" ?

Start with a solid sounding F chord shape. Then add your thumb. Or start with just your index finger barring the E & B strings & the thumb on the low E, then try to add your other fingers. Or just use full barre chords.

Hope that helps!

Hey what do you know, that actually worked on the first try, and now I can recreate it too. Great tip. I think I was focusing so hard on muting the fifth string with the tip of the ring finger I must have gotten bad angels. For now I will just be strumming those carefully and NOT hit the fifth string, maybe in a while I can find a way to mute the A string. Practice makes perfect they say so I will continue to work with the thumb over barre chords in the daily practice, sooner or later I will master it fully, with muted fifth string as well.


# 3
bouncee
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Joined: 01/18/20
Posts: 26
bouncee
Registered User
Joined: 01/18/20
Posts: 26
04/01/2021 1:57 am

What about the call and repsonse thing, is it possible to explain that in laymans words? How would we go about it? Or iff you can think of any good examples or maybe point to a video or even a certain song that could serve as a starting point.

Monkey see monkey do, way of learning maybe. But I've tried to read up on this yet still can't understand how to do it. Nor do I grasp how people take their first step into call and response, doe it require vast theory skills to arrange or where do we start?


# 4
ChristopherSchlegel
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Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,408
ChristopherSchlegel
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Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,408
04/01/2021 4:42 pm
Originally Posted by: bouncee

the last one of yours I don't understand. Is it the inverted G og D shaped G? I will try to figure it out.[/quote][p]It's a root position G major chord.

|-------------|

|-------------|

|--7--(d)----|

|--9--(b)----|

|--10-(g)----|

|-------------|

It's part of this overall barre chord C shape but with the root note (g) on the 10th fret of the A string.

I cover the CAGED shapes related to rhythm guitar in this tutorial.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=2614

I systematically cover triads & their inversions in this collection of tutorials.

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/triads-and-inversions

You can take any shape & move it around the fretboard. You can isolate just a few notes from any of those shapes to form a smaller voicing of any chord.

Originally Posted by: bounceeWell I am a huge John Mayer fan, but that does not do me any good. He is so great I am too intimmidated to even try to sit down and learn what he plays. That is pro elite game all the way.[/quote]

If you never try you'll never get there. Take one of his songs with guitar parts you like. Learn just one section at a time.

Originally Posted by: bounceeBut I guess what will still be an issue is the lack of knowledge of how arrange a song.[/quote]

The only way to get that knowledge is to learn how other artists have done it & then experiment with it yourself.

Originally Posted by: bounceeHave you like seen the Mayer and Urban youtube of them covering the Don't let me down by the beatles?

Yes. They play simple voicings of the 2 chords in the song. Then they play fills in between when the vocal lines sing.

Vocal part - guitar fill - vocal part - guitar fill

That's call & response that you mention later.

[quote=bouncee]Maybe I need to study theory to get some understanding of how to arrange music?

Studying theory can help. But most pop-rock artists learned the theory & the practice by imitation. They learned by doing. Copy their favorite artists & add something of their own. After all, you are referencing a cover song. :) Meyer & Urban probably admired the Beatles music a great deal & spent a lot of time learning their songs & how those songs are put together.

[quote=bouncee]Man I wish there was music camp for adults.

There is.

https://www.rockcamp.com/

And that's just a high profile one. I've seen a lot of local ones in various areas.

[quote=bouncee]

Hey what do you know, that actually worked on the first try, and now I can recreate it too. Great tip.

[p]Glad it helped!


Christopher Schlegel
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# 5
ChristopherSchlegel
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Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,408
ChristopherSchlegel
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Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 8,408
04/01/2021 4:51 pm
Originally Posted by: bouncee

What about the call and repsonse thing, is it possible to explain that in laymans words? How would we go about it?[/quote][p]Yes, you have to be aware of leaving space for various voices or instruments to do their thing. It requires everyone paying attention & being willing to play quietly or even drop out for a moment to let another part stand out! But at the same time everyone has to keep counting or their place & time in the song.

That's sometimes difficult for beginners that just want to bang away & play loud & are still just trying to concentrate on not messing up their own part. It requires really knowing your own part & being able to listen to what the other musicians are doing as well.

[quote=bouncee] Or iff you can think of any good examples or maybe point to a video or even a certain song that could serve as a starting point.

If you watch the live version of the song you mention there is a lot of basic arrangement going on.

At about 30 seconds in when the first verse starts you can hear all the instruments drop out except the vocals. Then, when the other instruments enter they do so relatively quietly (Urban's guitar is low in volume), and near the end of the vocal line Meyer plays an upper register simple pentatonic major diad lick on the E & B strings.

He leaves a little space for the next vocal line & then jumps in again when the vocal line is close to being done. There is a little overlap, but you can hear they are all working to make sure the vocal or the guitar can be heard clearly as the featured part for just a moment.

It requires a lot of attention to detail & teamwork.


Christopher Schlegel
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Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory
# 6

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