Scales


jimk8882
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Joined: 08/31/20
Posts: 98

Mike,

Wanted to let you know that I am enjoying your Friday night FB live sessions. I am a beginner getting close to finishing the Fundamentals II course. I really appreciate that you make sure that there is something for us beginners in each of your FB sessions. Enen when the material gets beyond my knowledge or skill, these sessions are a good way to get exposed to other concepts and techniques that I haven't learnt yet. After all, awareness is often the first step to learning.

I do have a comment arising from your most recent FB session, Efficient and Focused Practicing, on Nov 27/20. During that session you mentioned that we should include a study of scales in our practice, and in particular, learn and memorize playing scales over the entire neck of the guitar. In my studies to date, the only way I thought this was done was by using the grid-style method taught by Lisa in Fundamentals II, Chapter 2, Intro to the Major Scale. But by watching you, your fingers didn't appear to match up with this style but I wasn't sure what pattern you were doing. This prompted me to ask a question about using the grid-style method over the open-style method to learn scales. Based on your response, I quickly understood that you were speaking of patterns that are different than the grid-style. I have since found these patterns in the Scale Finder in the GT Toolbox and have incorporated this into my practice. So based on this, it makes me wonder why these patterns are not taught in Fundamentals when we were learning about scales. At a miniumum, this teaches us beginners where the notes are on the fretboard which I am sure will be handy when learning more advanced techniques. Anyways, thought I would raise this so it can be considered when it comes time to update the Fundamentals courses. Alternatively, maybe this could be a bonus lesson(s) that could be added to the site?

In the meantime, keep up the good work on the FB sessions.

Jim


# 1
Mike Olekshy
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 09/21/10
Posts: 959

Hey Jim - first off, thanks so much for checking out FB live on Friday nights and being a part of it all!! I really appreciate you tuning in!

Here's a GT tutorial that breaks down what I was talking about (re: scales) on the session:

https://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=12764

The Grid-style patterns Lisa teaches in Fundamentals are not completely different patterns, but simply smaller 1 octave versions of one (or more) of the full positional CAGED patterns I was talking about. She teaches the scales "grid" style just to keep things simple at first.

When you first open the Scale Finder in the Toolbox section of the site, it defaults to C major Pattern 1. Take a look at the top 3 strings of this pattern -- it is the exact Grid pattern Lisa teaches. This is great when you are first learning about scales and getting used to them. But, eventually, we'll want to memorize a scale using all 6 strings, all across the fretboard - so that we can get those notes no matter where we happen to be playing on the neck.

Make sense?

Mike

Originally Posted by: jimk8882

Mike,

Wanted to let you know that I am enjoying your Friday night FB live sessions. I am a beginner getting close to finishing the Fundamentals II course. I really appreciate that you make sure that there is something for us beginners in each of your FB sessions. Enen when the material gets beyond my knowledge or skill, these sessions are a good way to get exposed to other concepts and techniques that I haven't learnt yet. After all, awareness is often the first step to learning.

I do have a comment arising from your most recent FB session, Efficient and Focused Practicing, on Nov 27/20. During that session you mentioned that we should include a study of scales in our practice, and in particular, learn and memorize playing scales over the entire neck of the guitar. In my studies to date, the only way I thought this was done was by using the grid-style method taught by Lisa in Fundamentals II, Chapter 2, Intro to the Major Scale. But by watching you, your fingers didn't appear to match up with this style but I wasn't sure what pattern you were doing. This prompted me to ask a question about using the grid-style method over the open-style method to learn scales. Based on your response, I quickly understood that you were speaking of patterns that are different than the grid-style. I have since found these patterns in the Scale Finder in the GT Toolbox and have incorporated this into my practice. So based on this, it makes me wonder why these patterns are not taught in Fundamentals when we were learning about scales. At a miniumum, this teaches us beginners where the notes are on the fretboard which I am sure will be handy when learning more advanced techniques. Anyways, thought I would raise this so it can be considered when it comes time to update the Fundamentals courses. Alternatively, maybe this could be a bonus lesson(s) that could be added to the site?

In the meantime, keep up the good work on the FB sessions.

Jim


# 2
jimk8882
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Joined: 08/31/20
Posts: 98

Mike,

Thank you for the explanation and tieing it all together for me. Now it all makes sense, especially when I look at pattern 1 in the scale finder. Nice to know that I have already memorized part of pattern 1!

Thanks,

Jim


# 3
Tinpan
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Joined: 03/31/20
Posts: 398

I think there is a bit of a missing link. Finish fundamentals and then go looking as far as theory goes I Found. Would have loved to have a longer tructured path that takes us a big further so didn't end up jumping from basic to advanced....whhoops too hard.....search again.


# 4
Mike Olekshy
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 09/21/10
Posts: 959

Thanks for your feedback Tinpan! GT has designed the Core Learning System to focus on getting you playing first and foremost, without getting bogged down with too much theory that can be confusing.

That said, indeed there are several tutorials here on the site that can fill that gap if you wish. I highly recommend checking out Christopher Schlegel's Lessons Page that contains several progressive lessons that lean more to the theory side:

https://www.guitartricks.com/instructor.php?input=155014

Thanks!

Mike

Originally Posted by: Tinpan

I think there is a bit of a missing link. Finish fundamentals and then go looking as far as theory goes I Found. Would have loved to have a longer tructured path that takes us a big further so didn't end up jumping from basic to advanced....whhoops too hard.....search again.


# 5
jimk8882
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Joined: 08/31/20
Posts: 98

Hey Tinpan, couldn't agree more. Definitely don't want to go down that rabbit hole and get bogged down with theory. My focus for now is finishing fundamentals (I am about 95% complete) and then probably go to the Blues courses since Blues seems to a foundation of Rock. I am satisfied with picking up some theory as I go along so I can understand music and why it works but it is not my main goal. Who knows, maybe later. For now with respect to my original question, Mike has sufficiently explained the connection between what Lisa has taught and what he spoke of in his FB session. Also, I now have an understanding what is the CAGED system which I had previously heard but didn't know what it is. That enough for me.

Keep the advice coming as I wander through this journey.

Jim


# 6
ddiddler
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Joined: 05/13/20
Posts: 328

Thanks Mike

I too catch up on your Friday lessons

I watch next day as I'm in the UK

Love the stress on slowing down until you get it .

Like Jimk I went to the scales finder and printed them off.

Even doing so for every note .

Suppose I could have just done the C scales and learned how to move them. [br]I do use the fretboard game in the toolbox but this was the first time I heard the scale finder mentioned and how it can be applied. [br]I'm slowly improving my chord changes and following Lisa's finger picking on the channels.

Not quite ready for songs yet but I have a couple of single string riffs written so at least I can make some familiar sounds

once again thanks to you and all the instructors on GT


# 7
Mike Olekshy
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 09/21/10
Posts: 959

Thanks for the kind words, and checking out the FB Live sessions!

Mike

Originally Posted by: ddiddler

Thanks Mike

I too catch up on your Friday lessons

I watch next day as I'm in the UK

Love the stress on slowing down until you get it .

Like Jimk I went to the scales finder and printed them off.

Even doing so for every note .

Suppose I could have just done the C scales and learned how to move them. [br]I do use the fretboard game in the toolbox but this was the first time I heard the scale finder mentioned and how it can be applied. [br]I'm slowly improving my chord changes and following Lisa's finger picking on the channels.

Not quite ready for songs yet but I have a couple of single string riffs written so at least I can make some familiar sounds

once again thanks to you and all the instructors on GT


# 8
Tinpan
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Joined: 03/31/20
Posts: 398

Thanks Mike. Yes Chris theory lessons are really good I found when ready for them. No disrespect intended to the site and I'll be hanging around for sure because you guys are the best! Hard to explain and probably personal to my situation. I finished the structured lessons and found them really inspiring (especially the blues). I then kind of bounced around like a lost kid in a Gibson candy store looking for the right link to take me to the next theory level. I'm a big boy though and coming along nicely. I guess we all learn different. Personal thanks for single handedly holding up the song lessons last few months too mike. All really good lessons and you need a pairwi


# 9
Tinpan
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Joined: 03/31/20
Posts: 398

Payrise


# 10
ChristopherSchlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 7,930
Originally Posted by: Tinpan

I then kind of bounced around like a lost kid in a Gibson candy store looking for the right link to take me to the next theory level.

[p]Have you worked through this collection of tutorials on music theory?

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/music-theory

How about this series on triads & inversions?

https://www.guitartricks.com/collection/triads-and-inversions

Can you describe what kind of theory lessons you are looking for?


Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory
# 11
jimk8882
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Joined: 08/31/20
Posts: 98

Chris, out of curosity, when is one ready to do these lessons you have referenced in the preceding post? I don't want to get ahead of myself but I am interested in learning as much as I can. Thoughts?

Jim


# 12
ChristopherSchlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 7,930
Originally Posted by: jimk8882

Chris, out of curosity, when is one ready to do these lessons you have referenced in the preceding post? I don't want to get ahead of myself but I am interested in learning as much as I can.

The tutorials in the music theory collection can be done as soon as you complete GF 1&2. They assume you can play open & barre chords, basic scales. They are mostly focused on the concepts that explain those basic playing skills with some practical applications.

The Triads & Inversion tutorials are a little more advanced. They might require some extra physical dexterity. But they are designed to teach, show & demonstrate in a way that makes it possible learn as you go.

The idea behind these collections is that not all guitar students want a deep dive in theory. They just want to know where to put their fingers, how to strum & then play! :) But if you want a little more conceptual understanding of how & why you put your fingers in certain places to create certain sounds, then these tutorials are available.

Make sense?


Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory
# 13
Tinpan
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Joined: 03/31/20
Posts: 398

Yes thanks Chris. Most of them I've worked through and helping immensely.


# 14
jimk8882
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Joined: 08/31/20
Posts: 98

Chris, makes sense. Thank you for the info. [br][br]

Jim


# 15
ChristopherSchlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 08/09/05
Posts: 7,930

Y'all are welcome. :)


Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory
# 16
ddiddler
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Joined: 05/13/20
Posts: 328

To tinpan

but anyone interested

I think there is a bit of a missing link. Finish fundamentals and then go looking as far as theory goes I Found. Would have loved to have a longer tructured path that takes us a big further so didn't end up jumping from basic to advanced....whhoops too hard.....search again.

Do people not think a part of the missing link is that although we have completed parts 1 and 2 of fundamentals or at least viewed and followed the lessons that we haven't done enough practice to be able to say we are at the standard needed to move forward in to the styles beyond maybe the first sections.

That's where I'm at now with chords and changes.

I know them but I know I'm not really smooth or quick enough to move much further forward. Can only be improved with practice time

So I've done Fund 1 & 2 but I couldn't really say I'm at that level yet


# 17
jimk8882
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Joined: 08/31/20
Posts: 98

Ddiddler,

I find that I am in the same position as you. I have now completed the course material in GF 1 & 2, but certain physical skills are not up to that level yet. So I am planning on spending some time practicing those skills that need attention, such as changing to/from open and barre chords and working on the last couple of exercises in the minor scale chapter, before I move onto one of the style courses. Paraphrasing what you said, more practice will get me there.

Based on various threads throughout the GT Forum that I have read, I have concluded that it is okay if the knowledge side of playing and the physical skills of playing are different as long as they don't become too far apart. It would be discouraging if they did become too far apart because one would not be able to implement their current studies on a timely basis.

In the meantime, I might start investing some time into learning more music theory. At least until my physical skills are ready to move on.

Just thought I would share to see if it helps you.

Jim


# 18
Mike Olekshy
Guitar Tricks Instructor
Joined: 09/21/10
Posts: 959

Jim and Ddiddler - you both bring up great points. In my opinion, there is no substitute for putting in the time necessary to practice and drill the basic mechanics of playing guitar. For a beginner player, the emphasis should be on drilling smooth chord changes, clean picking technique, and a solid sense of timing. You need to practice these things over and over to become better at them. Picking up an understanding of the theory along the way is helpful as well, but should not be the primary focus at first IMO.

Mike


# 19