having problems putting solos/leads together!-(scale help!)

I play heavy metal. I am pretty new at playing lead. I am having trouble making "interesting" leads and solos. If someone were to play a 3 power chord rhythm, and i had to solo over it.....i would jsut wank around on 3 finger increments as fast I can around 12th fret and higher. I dont understand how things fit with scales. Do you take all the notes possible in an entire pentetonic scale and try to peice them together to get something sounding good or what? is there a way i can create a good rhythm, and then by knowing the key the rhythm is in, i can play the corresponding scale/notes?? I DONT KNOW HOW IT WORKS!!!!!!


any help would be fantastic guys, thanks

John,
There are many good lessons here to help you figure this out. I play metal also, you can check my lessons on my site - everything is based in "A" off your (minor) pentatonic scale. I have tabs,midi's and wav files of me playing the licks also. May help you get a grip on the leads.
-Bob
http://guitar-pedal.com

[Edited by N4Player on 12-31-2002 at 02:15 AM]

Your gonna wanna learn how key signatures work, then it'll become easier.

Josh brings up a good point. Although the lead progressions (patterns) will be the same in different keys - you should learn where on the fretboard you would start a lead in "E" vice "A" for example. Without this knowledge, your leads will sound like a Slayer lead (whatever notes he happens to set his fingers on, regardless of the key of the song)

Originally posted by N4Player
Although the lead progressions (patterns) will be the same in different keys - you should learn where on the fretboard you would start a lead in "E" vice "A" for example.

What is a lead progression pattern? Is it a rule that says only a certain pattern of notes will work with a certain key note? Where is the correct place on the fretboard to start a lead over "E"? I don't believe in anything like that. I believe you can start a solo over E on any note, or any place on the fretboard. Some are more common than others, but all are a particular sound. If that sound is what you want, then that's the note. You wouldn't need theory to tell you this, and shouldn't use it to tell you otherwise. Such rules make it seem like your limiting your musically ability by what your taught in theory. Not to confuse the beginner, but theory is only what it means. A Theory, that's it. It's just the knowledge of how things work, not how they have to and should work. So there is no correct place you should start a lead over any note, it's all in what you wanna hear.

To become the musician you wanna be, learn how to play what you wanna hear, that's it. To do this, learn songs without using tab or songbooks. Figure it out yourself, maybe in the beginning use tab and books to get you started. But you should always be trying to figure out stuff on your own, maybe some help here and there when your stuck. Internet tabs and songbooks are cheat sheets, you learn nothing other than to read tab. Hearing it, Knowing it on your instrument, Playing it. That's mastering your instrument. Along with reading music, learning techniques, and on and on.

Start with solo's and leads that are easy to figure out, then work your way up to harder stuff. It doesn't hurt to have a sampler, so you can slow down those blazing fast parts to figure them out too.

noticingthemistake - I couldn't agree with you more. That's the way I started (and learned). Never took a lesson in my life (been playing 21 years - many bands). The "pattern" I was referring to is just the basic "pentatonic" box style used in a million rock songs. The same notes (in the pattern) can be used in any key. I was just stating that it's good to know where (on the fretboard) the "E" notes (pattern} as compared to an "A". Helps a guitarist manuever up and down the fretboard without thinking if s/he's in key or not.

Well, do you guys know why accidentals can appear in the solo even when it's not in the key signature?? i've always wondered... or should you just do what you think sounds good and not care for questions like this? i dunno

also, i have another question...if the rhythm part has only like two or threee different power chords in it or something, how can you be able to tell what key it is in??

I_am_the_smartest - accidentals as you call them, may not be so accidental. Listen to a Robben Ford lick in a standard blues lead - he'll throw all sorts of notes in there - he's amazing. Blues with a jazz flair. Jazz is based on these "accidental" improvs - that's the whole idea - "what can I play here that sounds cool"...going against the "normal" lead/scale progressions.

answering your second question. Not easy...Keeping it simple - for most basic rock/blues, you'll have the 3 chord progression you describe. Such as A-D-E or E-A-D etc. Normally, if you're playing blues for instance, you have the 12 bar blues in "A", which would be your A-D-E chord progression, Blues in "E", E-A-D, so on. Of course, there's a hundred variations, but the most common are A and E, for blues, (and AC/DC LOL). In these cases they're calling the first chord the "key". If you're listening to a Dream Theater song...the key and time signatures will change with each breath....I need to go back to music school just to listen to them.

Ok, cool. I see what you meant now, I took it as only a pattern of certain notes work for the given key. And I figured a beginner may see it that way too. Like only playing notes E, G#, and B over a E maj chord or anything in that sort of manner. Although that idea isn't wrong, it will limit your playing if your always thinking in that way. You should have said something about a scale, cause it's more easily understood than a pattern.

On what you said about where to start a lead in E. I think you know, when playing in E. It doesn't always have to start on E, B (subdominant) is also a very common note to start any piece with. But you can start anywhere you want, if that's what you wanna hear. Also when changing chords or keys within a solo, starting with the key note on each chord change will produce more of a boxed in solo effect. Everytime you change a chord, the solo's tonality will also change with the chord. You want to stay away from this. To avoid this, you need to make the solo mix a more melodic flow. A solo is a piece of music in itself, so it should be treated that way.

To help on the subject:

When writing music, I was taught over and over that the focus point should always be written first for that particular scene in the music. Since a guitar solo is the focus point, it should be written first. The reason why, their are alot but I'm just gonna give a few, is because the solo needs to sound good as one piece of music BY ITSELF, that's why it's called a solo. When the listener hears a solo, thats what they focus on, everything else just blends behind it. Because of this, the solo should show the musical progression of your music without limits. The solo shouldn't harmonize the rhythm, because you're limiting yourself before you write the solo by the chords your using in the rhythm. Each time you write a chord before the solo is written, your taking a bite out of the possibilties in the solo. You probably find yourself working on a solo, and thinking "man I wish I could do this, but it doesn't fit the rhythm or the chord progression". Theory also works much better this way. When you look back at the solo you wrote and see that you wrote this measure of the solo in D Mixolydian scale, you know that a A7th chord will work great for the chord behind the solo. Sometimes you'll know just by hearing what you want there. It's easier to think of one note that sounds good, rather than 8, 16, etc. As for those who are concerned over the key of the solo. If the song is in the key of E, base the solo in the key of E. The chords will stay evolving around the key of E also, and it will work out fine. If that's not what your coming up with, don't worry there are these things called Pivot chords. You'll be able to get back to the original key. Just follow your musical instinct.

Most of the seasoned players on here, already have a way thats works great for them. I am not trying to change their ways, or say that they're wrong or say this is the only correct way. Whatever works for you, works! Although I hope I helped anyone, who may have had some of these problems with solos.

Finding what key a song is in is easy. It is 99 percent of the time, the last chord played in the song. If it's an Emaj, the song will be in Emaj. The song needs to feel completed so it will return the tonic(root) at the end to achieve this. Also, most of the time it's the first one too, but not always. It's conventionally the Root or the Dominant Chord that starts a piece. Beethoven's 5th Symphony is a perfect example of starting with the Dominant chord. It's in the key of Cmin, but it starts with G. In the end, the last chord is Cmin, so the key is Cmin.

As for riffs within the song itself, or as I would call "scenes". The chord progession will go through any of the chords (starting and ending), even keys. The scene will usually end with the tonic also, and the next scene will start with a new chord. One scene could be iii-vi-ii-V7 (repeat 3 times) then the fourth time iii-vi-ii-I. Then go into another scene (chorus) with the chords V7-ii-IV-I. It's not a rule to go this way, but it sounds good, and keeps the music moving.

Dude,

I Am no insane music theorist, but when determining a key, it's either best to set down a key to use int he first place when writing a song or just go by whichever relative basic major minor scale sounds good over the song. Esepcially if you are into metal, look into using Phrygian mode and such for a wicked evil minor sound, or just standard minor can be good. It is all up to you. As far as determining it in a chord progression most metal uses a base note or the guitars tuning as the key for the song. Though if you are into Megadeth then you would find this to be untrue. Though looking at any of Metallicas early stuff the whole first album is pretty much in Eminor. Since they spend lots of time palm muting open E notes all the time.

As for your origianl question about solos and leads, I say think in your head as you listen to the progression what cna i do that would be interesting or cool or musically worth while to play. If all you are doing is wanking with simple 3 note triplet patterns at excessive speed then you are limiting yourself to simple melodic scale runs. The trick i have found is to take the notes in a scale and run them up and down the fret board up and down octaves. I know not any special music theory term for this practice but i have noticed it in many classical pieces, neo-classical guitar solos, and metal as well. The trick here is to make the notes help to add to the feel of the song.

Another thing you could try is mixing up the patterns you play with 3 note at a time. Doing different triplet patterns across the fret board using whatever scale you decide upon. Move on two strings, 3 strings, 4 strings, whatever you can manage and make sound good. I've found some cool stuff can be accomplished using a whole tone scale on the top three strings. Also try using Diminished licks and runs. Augmented notes and such. I know there are some theory rules for when this is ok and when it is not musically viable. Under that term musically viable i mean pleasant to the ear. Someone else can fill in the blank on that one.

Yea, in other words take what you know and either build off it in creative ways through thinking and experimenting with whatever crazy guitar playing ideas you get or live with lame wanking with simple melodic 3 note patterns. Look to your influences for ideas to build off of and perhpas create some of your own as a result of combinding a few or just making way for your own ideas. I am a metal guitarist and it took me all of a year to nail down decent shred lead and contol after 3 years of rhythm playing. If you want some random stuff to work with just contact me or whatever, i have more than enough time to tab out some random ideas.

Hope that helps dude,
graphics_ninja@yahoo.com

[Edited by Seiko_Hejiro on 01-04-2003 at 02:51 AM]

I do that sometimes. I picked it up from my music teacher. I just run scales over the songs untill I find the one that fits. It works.

I write the key of a song before I even start writting the first note in the song. When looking at a song already written or one that I'm going to transpose, I always listen to the last chord. Works everytime. I have tried playing random major and minor chords over it, but found it too time consuming. Every song needs to end with the tonic, the ones (there are a few) that don't are the ones that sound incomplete. So it's 99% fail safe, but what works for you is what works.

As for coming up with riff just messing around and wanting to maybe use it in a song. First think of where you would be using it in a song. As an intro, verse, or a bridge? If it's an intro, look at the first chord. That is usually the key. Everything else you should look for it to fit in any key signature. Pay attention to the first and last chord, there's a good starting point. The root is interchangeable with the fifth so watch.

To add on Seiko about 3 note patterns. Arpeggios are good to use as those 3 note patterns, especially if you have to go over a chord. Since Arpeggios are broken chords themselves, they work well. Try ascending/descending in a major/minor scale using each notes arpeggio. Works very well!

Example in E minor (v, VII, ii(dim), iv, i)
B D F# A E
E:----------------------------------12--|
E:----------------------10h13p10h13-----|
G:-------------11h14p11-----------------|
D:----12h16p12--------------------------|
A:-14-----------------------------------|
E:--------------------------------------|

Running up and down a scale in good for getting a solo from point A to point B Sort of like a transition.

reading thru this I had the same problems you did when I started but how I got out of this problem was when I did finally learn a solo I played it backwards which opened up things to me and then I could do different things so maybe this might help you.try it with a solo you know and try it backwards.