Recording Dilemma
I have really been getting into recording lately, working on a six song demo. So far evrything has gone smoothly except when recording an overdriven guitar. I know its not the equipment that's to blame. I am using a Roland VS-2480 as my recording unit and a Paul Reed Smith Custom 22 run through a Hiwatt custom 100 and Boss Blues Driver. The mic I am using is a Audio Technica 4033-SE microphone placed two inches from the second speaker, yet it sounds like crap when played back. Coming out of the amp it sounds great and I don't know what else to do. I have run it through compressors and that helped a bit but it is nowhere near the quality I am looking for. I have thought of using a noise gate but am uncertain as to the difference it will make. I know there is someone on this site that can help. It is driving me insane, am I missing something crucial?
# 1
What exactly makes it sound bad? I mean, what is the difference between the sound recorded, and the sound you hear coming from the amp? (that is, IF you can describe it)
You have to keep in mind that a mic is going to pick up sound in a different way than the human ear. Settings on an amp that work well for live use, usually are not the settings that work best in a recording situation. Playing around with the gain controls(too much distortion kills tone and clarity) and equalizer might work.
Also, you're using a large diaphragm condensor mic, which can start distorting when subjected to a lot of low end and high pressure levels. I would try placing the mic at different distances from the driver, and see if putting it farther away makes it sounds better.
If you happen to have one, I'd try using a dynamic mic such as the Shure SM57 in stead, this is a more common way of recording distorted guitar.
That's about all I can come up with for now, hope it helps.
You have to keep in mind that a mic is going to pick up sound in a different way than the human ear. Settings on an amp that work well for live use, usually are not the settings that work best in a recording situation. Playing around with the gain controls(too much distortion kills tone and clarity) and equalizer might work.
Also, you're using a large diaphragm condensor mic, which can start distorting when subjected to a lot of low end and high pressure levels. I would try placing the mic at different distances from the driver, and see if putting it farther away makes it sounds better.
If you happen to have one, I'd try using a dynamic mic such as the Shure SM57 in stead, this is a more common way of recording distorted guitar.
That's about all I can come up with for now, hope it helps.
# 2
Hmmm..The sound you are probably getting is from the amp is buzzes, squeaks, or rattles right? If this is the bad sound. It's the amp and the only remedy for this is to try a different speaker, or a different cab altogether.
Another reason for bad sound could be because of the room ambience. Plus, with using a condenser mic that picks up alot of room ambience. First, you shouldn't use a condenser mic as the close one to the speaker. It just picks up too much, use it as your distant mic and the sm57 or any other unidirectional mic for close miking like trendkilla said. Back to a remedy, try moving the guitar amp into another room, good rooms include the following.
1 ambient guitar- tiled bathrooms, hallways, or large kitchens with tiled floor.
2 semi-ambient guitar- living room, bedroom.
3 non ambient guitar- closet.
Since using most of these rooms is probably a mess in itself, try throwing a blanket over the mic and amp. This will control the ambience, which if needed you can later add with reverb or echo.
Another thing is take off all the effects on your amp, reverb, echo, whatever. Except compression if you have it, but don't use to much. Just enough to balanced the sound, you don't want a crushed guitar sound. Mess with the EQ on the amp, to get a good sound from the amp first, then mic it. Try different distances until you find you that has a nice complete bold guitar sound. The distant mic should be 4-5 feet away and about a foot above the speaker.If you use a distant mic, lay a blank on the floor between the amp and the mic. Now ajust the volume level of the amp to comfortable level for the (close)mic, too loud and the mic distorts, too soft and mic won't pick anything up.Then use the trim to boost volume of the mic. Use the noise gate on the mixer, set it to where if you set your hands on the string you can't hear it, but as soon as you start playing even lightly it is picked up. Then try it.
Hopefully you have a mixer, to EQ the mics. It is crucial if your going have a half way decent recording. Here are some guildlines to start with.
Close-Mike
add clarity boost 10k
more strings boost between 5-8k, careful
more edge to sound is around 2-3k, boost very carefully cause too much will cause a lisp
the body is at 500 hz
the grunt is at 100hz
if you use the distant mike boost it at 10-15k and cut at 200hz.
When mixing down the EQ range to best concentrate on are 100hz, 500hz, and 3k.
Another good way to record, is directly into the mixer instead of miking the amp. You will get rid of all the bad sound from the amp and room. The only bad thing is it will sound very thin, so it's best if possible to record both miked and direct.
Also, your probably not gonna get the exact sound you want. Just worry about getting a nice, clear sound when recording the guitar. You will be able to mess around with it afterwards to get the sound you want, when you add reverb, EQ, whatever you wanna do.
Hint. DO NOT APPLY ANY EFFECTS WHILE RECORDING, SAVE IT FOR WHEN YOU MIXDOWN.
I hope this helps.
Another reason for bad sound could be because of the room ambience. Plus, with using a condenser mic that picks up alot of room ambience. First, you shouldn't use a condenser mic as the close one to the speaker. It just picks up too much, use it as your distant mic and the sm57 or any other unidirectional mic for close miking like trendkilla said. Back to a remedy, try moving the guitar amp into another room, good rooms include the following.
1 ambient guitar- tiled bathrooms, hallways, or large kitchens with tiled floor.
2 semi-ambient guitar- living room, bedroom.
3 non ambient guitar- closet.
Since using most of these rooms is probably a mess in itself, try throwing a blanket over the mic and amp. This will control the ambience, which if needed you can later add with reverb or echo.
Another thing is take off all the effects on your amp, reverb, echo, whatever. Except compression if you have it, but don't use to much. Just enough to balanced the sound, you don't want a crushed guitar sound. Mess with the EQ on the amp, to get a good sound from the amp first, then mic it. Try different distances until you find you that has a nice complete bold guitar sound. The distant mic should be 4-5 feet away and about a foot above the speaker.If you use a distant mic, lay a blank on the floor between the amp and the mic. Now ajust the volume level of the amp to comfortable level for the (close)mic, too loud and the mic distorts, too soft and mic won't pick anything up.Then use the trim to boost volume of the mic. Use the noise gate on the mixer, set it to where if you set your hands on the string you can't hear it, but as soon as you start playing even lightly it is picked up. Then try it.
Hopefully you have a mixer, to EQ the mics. It is crucial if your going have a half way decent recording. Here are some guildlines to start with.
Close-Mike
add clarity boost 10k
more strings boost between 5-8k, careful
more edge to sound is around 2-3k, boost very carefully cause too much will cause a lisp
the body is at 500 hz
the grunt is at 100hz
if you use the distant mike boost it at 10-15k and cut at 200hz.
When mixing down the EQ range to best concentrate on are 100hz, 500hz, and 3k.
Another good way to record, is directly into the mixer instead of miking the amp. You will get rid of all the bad sound from the amp and room. The only bad thing is it will sound very thin, so it's best if possible to record both miked and direct.
Also, your probably not gonna get the exact sound you want. Just worry about getting a nice, clear sound when recording the guitar. You will be able to mess around with it afterwards to get the sound you want, when you add reverb, EQ, whatever you wanna do.
Hint. DO NOT APPLY ANY EFFECTS WHILE RECORDING, SAVE IT FOR WHEN YOU MIXDOWN.
I hope this helps.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 3
I have been recording moderately distorted to very very horribly distorted guitar (PRS CE24 / Jap Strat / TexMex Calif. Strat) using either a Pod Pro or a GNX2 direct into a Korg D1600. Both boxes (GNX and pod) sound completely fantastic! I have also had a bit of success going straight from a tube screamer into the desk. If you cant get hold of a pod which has a built in Mic/room /cab emulator, it may be worth experimenting with plugging your blues driver directly into the desk.
Best of luck
Best of luck
My instructors page and www.studiotrax.net for all things recording.
my toons Brought to you by Dr BadGAS
my toons Brought to you by Dr BadGAS
# 4
Another fix when recording guitar which may have alot of signal noise, especially when sending the guitar straight into the console or any effects is a Direct Box. I think the POD has a build in direct box, and most newer effect consoles do since some are preamps also. Since guitar is a high-impedence instrument, and pretty much everything else used for guitar is low-impedence. A direct Box is a invalueable too to better improve signal-to-noise ratio. Especially with any effects like stomp boxes, rackmounts, cause it greatly improves the effect send because the input guitar sound is much clearer and stronger before it goes through anything else. Here's a diagram.
Guitar-->Direct Box-->Effects-->Amp or Console.
If you have a mixer.
Guitar-->Direct Box-->Mixer-->Effects-->Recorder
Remember it's better not to add any effects (except distortion and compression) until mixdown.
Also when listening to what you have on the mix, use Monitors or run it through your stereo speakers. Never Go By What You Hear In Headphones. The frequency range, where the frequency boosts are, and stereo panning is completely inaccurate. You will find later that your recording either has too much bass, too much highs, or just plan old weak if you mix with headphones.
Guitar-->Direct Box-->Effects-->Amp or Console.
If you have a mixer.
Guitar-->Direct Box-->Mixer-->Effects-->Recorder
Remember it's better not to add any effects (except distortion and compression) until mixdown.
Also when listening to what you have on the mix, use Monitors or run it through your stereo speakers. Never Go By What You Hear In Headphones. The frequency range, where the frequency boosts are, and stereo panning is completely inaccurate. You will find later that your recording either has too much bass, too much highs, or just plan old weak if you mix with headphones.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 5
It's gonna take me awhile to figure out all this, but it does sound promising. What exactly does a direct box do? I looked them up but am still a little hazy on exactly how they work and what they do. I experimented with changing mics in the recording process and it's true, the AT 4033 really couldn't handle the level of the guitar. I guess it is the diaphragm being too sensitive. My brother is picking up the Shure Mic Drum Kit so I will definitely try the sm57 for micing my amp, I have heard nothing but good things about the sm57's so I am shure (pardon the pun) that they will help. I know my resources are limited but I want to mimic the sound and clarity the Mark Tremonti and Mike Einziger achieve (I know they are not the favourites on this sight) but then again I am not a shredder or heavy into leads, really I am looking for a solid backround guitar sound. I know its possible, it's something I have to do. Anyways if there are any more suggestions I am all ears, so far the help has been wicked awesome.
# 6
First of all, I want to say I hate snow cause I can't leave my house but anyways. A Direct Box is a high-impedence to low-impedence converter. See a guitar is a high-impedence instrument meaning if it is transferred to a low-impendence input, Alot of high frequency signal is lost destroying the clarity. Most consoles are low-impedence, check your manual for the Roland as see(input: +4db need direct box, if input:-10db no direct box needed). Now if your still wanting to play through the amp and record it with a mic, a direct box is useless. Guitar amps have high-impedence inputs, plus the mic is where the signal is recorded from. A Direct Box is Primarily used when recording straight into a mixer/recorder. Which, if your saying you want a solid clear sound from your guitar. Recording Directing into a console is your best bet. And better if possible record with both direct and amped mic, so you can get that live sound.
About the mics, the SM57 is such a badda** because it has no EQ curve to it. I'll explain. See most mikes, including the Audio-Technica you used before, are made for special purposes so they have certain EQ curve already added. It was probably boosting EQ in places where it doesn't sound good with guitar. The SM57 however has no EQ curve, so whatever you do to the EQ on the mixer, that's the EQ your gonna get. Save the audio-technica for your vocals, I think that is what it is intended for.
About getting that guitar sound like Mark Tremonti or Mike Einziger. Here's the key, your not gonna get their sound just from your amp and guitar and whatever you do when your record. The reason is alot of things, he's probably using completely different equipment, the recording equipment is different, and above all it's been EQ'ed throughout the mixing process. Don't worry I think I can help you, so try going through this list.
First listen to the cd's they are on, see if their using clean/drive/distortion. Apply whichever to the amp your using.
Second listen to the cd while doing this. Mess with the EQ, Gain knobs and get as close as your can to the sound they have. Don't be Fanatical, just get as close to the sound as you can, you'll know when your there.
Third, do the same thing with the mixer or recorder. I am sure the recorder you have has effects you can add to the recorded sound. Use compression, try these setting first, they are what most engineers set for guitar.
Compression Ratio 4:1
Gain Reduction -3db or -4db
Attack Fast, Decay Slow
Now get the EQ and mess with it. I think in the second post I wrote the "target Frequencies" go by that until you get a nice clear solid sound from the guitar amp. You should be able to get very, very close to his sound. Just keep messing with it until you get there, save it once your done cause it may take awhile.
Fourth, your probably gonna record other instruments as well. If so, go through the steps as you did with the guitar on each instrument using the same cd as a refernece point. Although, I don't believe in stealing other peoples art, this technic is a good way to learn how to record.
Have fun.
Also, use noise gate either with effects on recorder if possible or just before going into the recorder.
[Edited by noticingthemistake on 12-28-2002 at 06:00 PM]
About the mics, the SM57 is such a badda** because it has no EQ curve to it. I'll explain. See most mikes, including the Audio-Technica you used before, are made for special purposes so they have certain EQ curve already added. It was probably boosting EQ in places where it doesn't sound good with guitar. The SM57 however has no EQ curve, so whatever you do to the EQ on the mixer, that's the EQ your gonna get. Save the audio-technica for your vocals, I think that is what it is intended for.
About getting that guitar sound like Mark Tremonti or Mike Einziger. Here's the key, your not gonna get their sound just from your amp and guitar and whatever you do when your record. The reason is alot of things, he's probably using completely different equipment, the recording equipment is different, and above all it's been EQ'ed throughout the mixing process. Don't worry I think I can help you, so try going through this list.
First listen to the cd's they are on, see if their using clean/drive/distortion. Apply whichever to the amp your using.
Second listen to the cd while doing this. Mess with the EQ, Gain knobs and get as close as your can to the sound they have. Don't be Fanatical, just get as close to the sound as you can, you'll know when your there.
Third, do the same thing with the mixer or recorder. I am sure the recorder you have has effects you can add to the recorded sound. Use compression, try these setting first, they are what most engineers set for guitar.
Compression Ratio 4:1
Gain Reduction -3db or -4db
Attack Fast, Decay Slow
Now get the EQ and mess with it. I think in the second post I wrote the "target Frequencies" go by that until you get a nice clear solid sound from the guitar amp. You should be able to get very, very close to his sound. Just keep messing with it until you get there, save it once your done cause it may take awhile.
Fourth, your probably gonna record other instruments as well. If so, go through the steps as you did with the guitar on each instrument using the same cd as a refernece point. Although, I don't believe in stealing other peoples art, this technic is a good way to learn how to record.
Have fun.
Also, use noise gate either with effects on recorder if possible or just before going into the recorder.
[Edited by noticingthemistake on 12-28-2002 at 06:00 PM]
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 7
I think I can skip the direct box regardless of the amp or not. I have this Guitar HI-Z input on the 16th track input of the console which I am assuming is like an internal direct box provided by Roland. It has a on/off switch meaning the console must be low-impedence, yet I tried that. I plugged directly into the board after a using my boss blues driver and it sounded worse. Like crazy static devoid of pitch and clarity. I have heard from interviews with the artists that they love to mic their amps and I think that's the route I wanna go. The Hiwatt Custom 100 is a beautiful amp, its got that vintage rock sound even when the overdrive is provided by the box. I really need to harness its capabilities.
Achieving Einziger's tone is not a problem when playing live, it gets lost though through the recording process. I really think the new mics will have a tremendous impact but if they don't I won't know where to go. It's frustrating when you here it great out of the amp but pathetic on playback. If this is exasperating you just tell me, I am fairly new at the technical lingo and the whole recording process. The manual alone for the vs 2480 is 500 pages and I have read about one fifth of it so I am getting tired myself. Thanks for all your help though, I can't wait to try it.+
Achieving Einziger's tone is not a problem when playing live, it gets lost though through the recording process. I really think the new mics will have a tremendous impact but if they don't I won't know where to go. It's frustrating when you here it great out of the amp but pathetic on playback. If this is exasperating you just tell me, I am fairly new at the technical lingo and the whole recording process. The manual alone for the vs 2480 is 500 pages and I have read about one fifth of it so I am getting tired myself. Thanks for all your help though, I can't wait to try it.+
# 8
Yeah, you can skip the Direct Box if your not recording directly. Hi-Z means high impedence. So when you go through your blues driver pedal into the Recorder, it should be on High Impedence not Low. You will get a bad sound if it was on Low. Low Impedence is for mics and direct-in recording. Using your amp is great to use, it just takes alittle more care and consideration. Follow what I said (but experiment yourself)and you should be fine. A rule of recording, you won't know what sounds the best unless you try everything. The biggest factor in miking a good sound out of an amp, is the position of the mic. So try every angle and position you can think of until you find something you like. Let me know if you run into any problems. I'll try to help you out.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 9
If you have the time and the kit you could try re-amping.
This is where you record the guitar track clean and then feed the recording back through amps / microphones or a pod and record it over again when you have the tone you want.
This also make doing overdubs to fatten up your sound easier as you don’t have the hassle of tiring to play the same thing exactly the same twice !
BTW, I have just finished recording a bunch of songs and I have used a pod for all of then (guitar as well as the bass) and I cant recommend it highly enough. It is very easy to use, custom made for direct recording and sounds fantastic (maybe not quite as good as the original it is emulating but behind the rest of the band, no one can tell). OK that is my 2 cents !
This is where you record the guitar track clean and then feed the recording back through amps / microphones or a pod and record it over again when you have the tone you want.
This also make doing overdubs to fatten up your sound easier as you don’t have the hassle of tiring to play the same thing exactly the same twice !
BTW, I have just finished recording a bunch of songs and I have used a pod for all of then (guitar as well as the bass) and I cant recommend it highly enough. It is very easy to use, custom made for direct recording and sounds fantastic (maybe not quite as good as the original it is emulating but behind the rest of the band, no one can tell). OK that is my 2 cents !
My instructors page and www.studiotrax.net for all things recording.
my toons Brought to you by Dr BadGAS
my toons Brought to you by Dr BadGAS
# 10
Yeah the POD is definitely good for recording. That's what I use also (I use a Hartke for bass though). But yeah In time, and if you have the money. It is definitely a good advestment to make if you wanna keep recording. Most people see it and don't think it's any good, I too was one of those people. But once you get the software, you can edit the sound to anything you want. Pretty sweet.
"My whole life is a dark room...ONE BIG DARK ROOM" - a.f.i.
# 11
