Why do some guitarists think the guitar is so unique?

I have been playing the guitar for over 20 years, never seriously until fairly recent (last year to 18 months). I did play the clarinet pretty seriously even being in my universities jazz band. I have been a member here for 6-8 months and have enjoyed every minute and my guitar ability has increased very nicely in that time. I am a completely happy customer. Being somewhat of an academic, I tend to do a lot of research and reading on whatever I’m interested in and listen to as many informed opinions as possible when making a choice. Ultimately after doing a lot of research on how to study guitar and particularly the music I wanted to play, I choose a private tutor and the book A Modern Method for Guitar by William Leavitt. I left private study for various reasons mostly because of my work and travel schedule and ended up here at Guitar Tricks. I have continued and finished Modern Method level 1 and John Ganape’s Blues You Can You. I am currently still working my way through Modern Method level 2 as well as Blues level 2 here on Guitar Tricks. I don’t know if my history is relevant to my question, but you have it incase there is any bias in the question.

Doing all my research and reading on various guitar websites, message boards, reviews of guitar method books and even interviewing 6 private instructors, one question kept popping into my mind. My question is what makes a certain percentage of guitar players (in some cases even more experienced and fairly accomplished) seemingly think the guitar is different then all other forms of musical instrument study. What I specifically refer to is what at times seem to be hatred if not an outright blind rage toward formal music education. A certain percentage of guitars seem to take not knowing any music theory or not being able to read standard music notation as a badge of honor. There is a percentage of these same “musicians” that will even insult fellow guitarist for wanting to learn these things. While I have known a rare few people who played piano completely by ear none of them were proud of that fact, if anything they were slightly embarrassed or wanted to learn more formally. As far as clarinet, I never met or even heard of anyone that just learned by ear with no formal music training.

Having a background that serves me well both in music and formal education in general I find this attitude perplexing. Does anyone have any ideas as to what it is about the guitar that seems to foster the attitude that you don’t study guitar and music the same way as with every other instrument? Is it in the guitar as an instrument or in the rock n’ roll attitude that detests formal knowledge and the establishment? I don’t really expect to find an answer but the topic fascinates me and I would love to hear others’ opinions.

I think it's because a lot, if not most, people that initally want to learn the guitar is because of the image. Especially for teen boys. So its natural for them to want to be a guitarist before a musician.

From personal experience, i initally started playing guitar because i wanted to be john frusciante. At 17, theory just looked like homework. I just wanted to get laid and have a reason to act like an idiot, really. I learned most of his solo stuff and came up with licks based on his style, but i did not start to look at theory seriously until i was around 24 (with plenty of time off due to personal ups and downs).

At 31 i can see how foolish and what a waste of time those years were. I think as i matured i stopped caring about the image. The love of music never left so now i take the time to appreciate why it sounds good when i fret certain strings, why a minor chord is called a minor, scales, etc. Ive ventured into other instruments since the language is universal.

I am not sure where i am going with this, so i will just say i dont fault people for not wanting to be a well rounded musician At first. After all, music theory are "rules" for something very abstract (manipulation of sound).

I say people should be free and encouraged to play for whatever reason they choose :)

Originally Posted by: SJWeissenI have been playing the guitar for over 20 years, never seriously until fairly recent (last year to 18 months). I did play the clarinet pretty seriously even being in my universities jazz band. I have been a member here for 6-8 months and have enjoyed every minute and my guitar ability has increased very nicely in that time. I am a completely happy customer. Being somewhat of an academic, I tend to do a lot of research and reading on whatever I’m interested in and listen to as many informed opinions as possible when making a choice. Ultimately after doing a lot of research on how to study guitar and particularly the music I wanted to play, I choose a private tutor and the book A Modern Method for Guitar by William Leavitt. I left private study for various reasons mostly because of my work and travel schedule and ended up here at Guitar Tricks. I have continued and finished Modern Method level 1 and John Ganape’s Blues You Can You. I am currently still working my way through Modern Method level 2 as well as Blues level 2 here on Guitar Tricks. I don’t know if my history is relevant to my question, but you have it incase there is any bias in the question.

Doing all my research and reading on various guitar websites, message boards, reviews of guitar method books and even interviewing 6 private instructors, one question kept popping into my mind. My question is what makes a certain percentage of guitar players (in some cases even more experienced and fairly accomplished) seemingly think the guitar is different then all other forms of musical instrument study. What I specifically refer to is what at times seem to be hatred if not an outright blind rage toward formal music education. A certain percentage of guitars seem to take not knowing any music theory or not being able to read standard music notation as a badge of honor. There is a percentage of these same “musicians” that will even insult fellow guitarist for wanting to learn these things. While I have known a rare few people who played piano completely by ear none of them were proud of that fact, if anything they were slightly embarrassed or wanted to learn more formally. As far as clarinet, I never met or even heard of anyone that just learned by ear with no formal music training.

Having a background that serves me well both in music and formal education in general I find this attitude perplexing. Does anyone have any ideas as to what it is about the guitar that seems to foster the attitude that you don’t study guitar and music the same way as with every other instrument? Is it in the guitar as an instrument or in the rock n’ roll attitude that detests formal knowledge and the establishment? I don’t really expect to find an answer but the topic fascinates me and I would love to hear others’ opinions.

Hey SJ!

The only thing I can tell you is there's a bit of rebel that is ingrained in every man. Some ride bikes (motorcycles), some jump from planes, some star their own businesses. Then there is the average guy that maybe hasn't had a lot of education, maybe he loves music and wants to play. The guitar is everyman's instrument. It's great for folks like yourself that wants to study music and learn as much as he can, or for the guy who just wants to play to sing, and nothing more, so he learns a handful of chords and calls it good.

You are absolutely correct that some guitarists act as if their way of learning is the best way, and even take a sense of pride at their accomplishments without studying music theory. But that's what makes the guitar special. they can get really good doing that if they choose to. To be honest, I've had many students of music look down their nose at me, because they are musicians and I "just play the guitar." Or that I "settled" for a seagull, when they paid for a Martin, or a Taylor. To those on the extreme of both sides, get over yourselves.

The guitar is an instrument that is easy to play and difficult to learn. By that I mean you can study it a lifetime and never learn it all. But with a little effort you can sing your favorite girl a love song, or tell a story with it. The guitar goes everywhere and is recognized immediately, and people relate it to fun. When did anyone (other than a die hard musician ever say a tuba was fun? Or a flute?

Right or wrong people gravitate to guitar music. It can be played effectively by rich or poor, young and old. I've even seen a guy play who was an amputee and do a great job of it.

Finally, it is an instrument that the average guy can play and share the depths of his soul. there's something about a guitar that people relate to.

I hope that helps answer your conundrum!

Have a great day!
Russell

A very interesting question. The other responses hit the nail on the head...when you come down to it, it's rock and roll and the attitude that comes with it. That's how it starts typically anyway.

I made my first attempt at the age of 10 equipped with a Mel Bay book. It tried to teach me the notes on the staff and simple melodies. I lost interest almost immediately. 3 years later, a friend of mine showed me 3 chords. Suddenly I could play Polythene Pam by the Beatles and Back in Black by AC/DC. THAT was cool and I've been hooked ever since.

Theory isn't my strong area, but I'm learning some of it as it interests me and applies to what I'm doing. I don't wear my lack of theory knowledge as a badge of honor...it is what it is. What I have found interesting is that I have played with other musicians that were strong on theory but couldn't improvise for beans. They could play from sheet music really well. Rather than looking down on me, they were impressed with my ability to improvise and "wing it" with chord voicings and rhythms. There I stood impressed with their ablity to play what was written.

There is no reason for one musician to look down their nose at another. Everybody comes to music from their own perspective...and that's what makes it interesting IMO.

The 'attitude' reflects a poorly read and ill educated 'musician' and a lack of maturity. With a little growing up and a little more experience in music all can be corrected. This applies to both sides -- those who look down upon others who are formally trained as well as those who look down upon others who lack such training.

Very, very much IMO, of course. :D

Originally Posted by: SJWeissenDoes anyone have any ideas as to what it is about the guitar that seems to foster the attitude that you don’t study guitar and music the same way as with every other instrument?

Stupidity.

....of which I was long guilty of this crime.

For the record, I never showed disdain for those that took learning the guitar properly and understanding theory. I was a young idiot that wore that 'I taught myself' badge too.

What I moron I was....yeesh.

That's why, given time which is not plentiful for me these days, I am still here. If truth be known, I pay my GT fee without really using it much these days. I'm happy to. I believe in the product and I consider a donation to the 'cause' so that it supports guitar learning. I do check a lesson or two once in a while.

I digress....

I came here to learn what I did not bother to learn before, understanding what was behind my playing. If you saw me play, it would seem that I have a good grasp of theory and and physical skill (though really rusty at the moment). It is kind of a rouse. I did learn how to play on my own for the most part and found a few tips here and there and scales and keys. The rest was me.

Sounds neat that I could play without learning the theory and method that underlies guitar playing. Nope. Dumb. Somebody watching me play might not notice but I can promise you that there are huge limitations on my playing that no one knows because I haven't yet bothered to understand them.

I'm kinda a guitar version of a BSer.

This is the honest truth. Someone who wears the 'I learned myself' badge is telling you that they were not motivated enough to really learn the instrument. Read > lazy.

That includes me.....

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Jeff - I wouldn't say you are stupid...not at all. You've just taken a different path to the guitar...that's all. With what you had, you've figured out how to get your voice through the guitar. I wouldn't call that BS. So now your journey includes some of the maturity that John mentions...and you'll continue forward.

This is like saying that only a person with a degree in English Literature is capable or writing a story or a book that is worth reading. Simply not true!!

I would bet that there are things you can play that would make a "properly trained guitarist" go "hmmm, that was cool, how did you do that?".

Thanks for all the interesting opinions folks! It is interesting hearing what others have to say.

Maybe I didn't make this clear in my question, but I have no opinion on how to learn the guitar, I'm no expert and certainly not a teacher. I am walking down a path that I think will work best for me, and I am happy with my current progress. I think there are great guitarist from both camps. Like maggior said they are just different paths to the same place. I do find the hatred of classical training by a small minority a bit odd, or when I have heard things like "just listen to music you like and play, learning notes and scales are waste of time". If you are gifted enough to do that great, but I don't think it is the only way or even preferred way to learn for most people. To be fair, I feel the same way the other way, when I hear people discourage people that aren't classically trained away from what is working for them.

Discussing this with my wife, an accomplished violinist in her own right (who dislikes the suzuki method), she said something I hadn't thought of. That there is something inherent to the guitar and the piano that makes a more intuitive feel style learning possible, and that is the linear lay out of those instruments. with the frets or keys being a semitone apart, one can find the note fairly easily if you can hear the interval. With the brass and woodwind instruments those intervals aren't as intuitive or easy to see. This is also partially true but somewhere in the middle for the non-fretted stringed instruments. So maybe there is something intrinsic to the guitar that makes that style of learning more possible.

Again thanks for the various opinions!

I believe that the answer lies somewhere in the middle of: Being able to learn guitar without music notation and the fact that guitar is not the easiest instrument to learn reading notes with and the fact that 99% of guitar driven music in not notated (except classical).
I believe that reading music notation is a good thing to have, but on the other side in my 17 years (10 professionally) i NEVER got to studio and was given a lead sheet to record or play or what ever. In stead my studio time was more like this:
Producer: Here's the song, i need it to be like this and this, do your thing with it.
Me: 'Ok'

This is probably the main reason for standard music notation not being more popular with rock guitar.
But I don't think that making fun or even disrespecting other guitarist who invest time in music reading skills should be laughed at. This is bizarre and IMO act of an ego.

Originally Posted by: maggiorJeff - I wouldn't say you are stupid...not at all. You've just taken a different path to the guitar...that's all. With what you had, you've figured out how to get your voice through the guitar. I wouldn't call that BS. So now your journey includes some of the maturity that John mentions...and you'll continue forward.

This is like saying that only a person with a degree in English Literature is capable or writing a story or a book that is worth reading. Simply not true!!

I would bet that there are things you can play that would make a "properly trained guitarist" go "hmmm, that was cool, how did you do that?".

Though to be clear, I can say that my previous post was a bit of hyperbole, if sort of a stab at funny-ish.

I never really totally dogged myself in my playing. But the point does remain that there was much that I find that would have been useful had I bothered when I was younger.

But support from fellow guitarists is always welcome :D

I do remember when the first time someone like, stopped to watch me play when I was noodling at the local guitar store. Great store in Moorhead, MN back in the day. They had an 'isolation' room in the back corner (which was just a small room with a window). I was just running through my standard noodling I always warmed up with and a few people collected at the window to watch.

I was totally self conscious but I soldiered on and played.

When I was done, I walked back to the counter where the sales guys were hanging. I had become friends (well, a gadfly really...) with them. The primary guitar salesman and an awesome player said, 'People don't stop to watch you play for no reason' ...and left it at that.

At that point I realize I could play. I relied on that instead of investing on actual understanding though.

In a way, I've relied on my ability to do a 'fake it 'til' ya make' in many things. The reason why I seemed so goofy but direct in my previous post is that at some point, you will run in to your limitations and regret what you were too lazy to do before.

I'm 50 years old, can play guitar pretty well but have to play catch-up on my weaknesses. An occasional free-lance graphic designer with no formal training. A Project Manager (my day job) where I manage a shockingly big project...yet I am working on my bachelors now (with a degree in Project Management....I have the job my degree would get me already).

I don't really down myself too much but at this point, at 50, I can look back and know that simply because I could take the easy way out and still do decently doesn't mean I should have.

The actual point of my 'people watching me through the window' story is not about my ability to play but that because of my 'til you make' ability, I've always felt a little like someone's going to find out that I'm not actually all that. To actually have a sound basis in knowledge of any discipline undergirds that which you might already be capable of doing.

Thus my previous post.

Hey JeffS65 -

OK, gotchya :). Subtlety like that doesn't some through too well on the internet sometimes.

I know exactly what you mean because I've been in the same position musically and professionally...doing the job and performing the tasks before being "technically qualified". Reality is that the only qualification is being able to perform the task and do the job to the boss's/customer's/audience's satisfaction :). I try to focus on that to quell the fear of being "found out".

If you talk to people, I think there are a lot more "fake it before you make it" going on in the world than you might think.