Scales

Hello there

I have learned so much on guitar tricks, so much so that I felt like the lessons that I was taking were not getting me ahead at all. So I ditched them. I have only been playing for a couple of months but now I am getting severely confused.

Ok so I learned the C Major and A minor pentatonic scales. I know they have different root notes but it is the same scale, also the blues notes. So when you guys talk about using the major and minor together it is the same. And correct me if I am wrong but I cannot find any other pentatonic scales on the website for the other notes. So I am trying to learn the E minor Pentatonic scale which I found on another website since everyone says that it is a useful scale to learn. Also I watched another guy on Youtube who says you can play the first box of the A minor/ C Major anywhere on the fretboard and it does sound good wherever you play it. Also I was told you could play the Aeolian anywhere. So is it really possible to learn every scale for every note? I am just overwhelmed with information and I need somewhere to focus. I still don't understand how to move up and down the fretboard from one box to another. Also noone who explains the caged system has helped me to understand it. I guess I am trying to take in too much all at once.

So what should I focus on? Also if you guys could get some Led Zepplin, AC/DC, Metallica, Guns and Roses on your song list it would be awesome.

Thank You

Now take this advise with a grain of salt, but I learned the scales in this order:

* Major Scale
* Minor Scale
* Minor/Major Pentatonic Scale
* Blues
* Dorian

Now, my reason for this is because Major and Minor scales are building blocks of it all. Then I went to pentatonic scales. Each minor petatonic scale has a matching major pentatonic scale.

* C Major / A Minor
* D Major / B Minor
* E Major / C# Minor
Etc

Also, pentatonic is used a ton and its shapes were the easiest for me to leave. You learn the five positions and then just change where you start for what scale it is. A great thing to check out is the Scale tool on here (https://www.guitartricks.com/scalefinderpop.php) will help you see the notes in the scales.

Then after pentatonic, I went to Blues scale because it is same as pentatonic, just with a couple more notes.

Then I did Dorian, because it is same as blues with a couple more notes.

By doing this way, I built off what I have previously learned.

Now, that being said, this worked for me. Not saying it is the best way. LOL

Hey, there! Glad you are enjoying GT!

Originally Posted by: UllRAnd correct me if I am wrong but I cannot find any other pentatonic scales on the website for the other notes. So I am trying to learn the E minor Pentatonic scale which I found on another website since everyone says that it is a useful scale to learn.
[/quote]
One you know the scale pattern & formula, the shape it makes on the fretboard, then you can just move it up & down the and play in any key you want. You will of course have to know the note names at least on the low E string so you'll know which key you are playing in!

I strongly encourage you to go through Guitar Fundamentals 2 Chapter 1 in which I cover intervals & scales in detail from a total beginner perspective.

https://www.guitartricks.com/course.php?input=2

The pentatonic scales are useful, especially for guitar. But until you understand what a scale is & how it can be used those big box shapes just wind up being confusing & overwhelming to some beginners.

Originally Posted by: UllRSo is it really possible to learn every scale for every note?

Yes, absolutely! And what you are referring to is covered in the GF2 lessons.

After you have a look at those basic scales & concepts, then have a look at my pentatonic tutorial. I provide the missing link in between fundamental scales & the pentatonic boxes that guitar players use so often. :)

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=296
[QUOTE=UllR]
So what should I focus on?

You should focus on basic understanding & skills of playing chords & scales in rhythmic time. That way you will be building your skill set so you can eventually learn to play the songs you love by those classic rock bands! :)

Also, please have a look at the Rock Course. It will show you all the tools you need to play those styles.

https://www.guitartricks.com/course.php?input=rock1

You've got to crawl before you can walk or run. :) Be patient with yourself. Take it one step at a time. It will be worth it if you put in the time & effort! :D

Ask more if necessary! And best of success!

Does it help at all to think of the natural minor scale in it's relative Major key as far as scale patterns go and just change where the root and subsequent note numbers land in your thinking? Example: All the notes in C Major are the same as A minor (It's relative natural minor.) Just have to think of the note numbers differently. So the root or I (A) in A minor is the VI (6) scale step in the key of C. This possibly allows you to memorize a little less scale patterns. Am I an idiot for approaching it this way?

If it works for you, than it's good...and you aren't an idiot :).

The key difference to understand is that the shape may be the same, but the roots are in different places. So you can't play the scale the same way for C as you would for Am. It's the INTERVALS that give the scale its sonic flavor, not the notes themselves.

You could take it a step further and say that with one single scale pattern, you have all 7 modes down. The minor scale is just one of those modes. Each mode of a scale is the same notes, just starting from a different point in the scale...it's the intervals.

The pentatonic scales work in a similar fashion. Take a minor pentaonic scale shape and slide it back 3 frets...and you have the major pentatonic scale for that key. Pretty handy!

Here's how this can actually be useful. I started out learning all of the minor pentatonic shapes and that's how I solo. That's currently my frame of reference. So let's say I'm soloing in a song that a major pentatonic scale fits best in the key of G. I notice that this would use the same scale shapes as Em pentatonic. So I use those shapes and think "Em", but start on G rather than E to get my "center" and my ear takes me the rest of the way.

Not saying that is the best way (probably not actually), but it is A way.

Originally Posted by: maggiorSo let's say I'm soloing in a song that a major pentatonic scale fits best in the key of G. I notice that this would use the same scale shapes as Em pentatonic. So I use those shapes and think "Em", but start on G rather than E to get my "center" and my ear takes me the rest of the way.

Not saying that is the best way (probably not actually), but it is A way.

This just clicked! Thanks!

Originally Posted by: ThorfinnFriskenThis just clicked! Thanks!

Hope it helps! Once I realized this, I was able to improvise in a major key much more successfully. Eventually you stop thinking about it, but this got me started.

Seemed to make sense to me. Just curious if it worked for anyone else. Thanks a bunch

Thank everyone for the ideas. Good thoughts.

CSchlegel, I have watched all of fundamentals 1 and 2 and the rock fundamentals and a lot of the blues videos.

I do understand the Major WWHWWWH and Minor WHWWHWW. I think I pretty much have the CMaj and AMin diatonic scales down. It is just easier to learn the Pentatonic and just memorize the shapes/patterns. But I guess that is not helping to memorize the notes. I think I hear the sound much better than I remember where certain notes are. I always have to stop and figure out where and which note it is. I think I just feel like I should be soloing with slath when in reality I can play happy birthday. I have learned several AC/DC songs like Back in Black and Hells Bells and can keep up with Amazing slowdowner on 100%. Also Boston more than a Feeling and America Sister Golden hair. That one helped me to get faster changing between bar cords.

Anyway I think I am just looking for " THE ANSWER " you know how can I learn faster and what should I focus on and in what order. Anything worthwhile usually takes hard work and time so I guess I will keep plugging away. I have tried 2 different teachers for lessons but they have not told me anything or showed me anything that I have not learned on this site or Youtube.

Thanks for everyones ideas...

Originally Posted by: UllR
CSchlegel, I have watched all of fundamentals 1 and 2 and the rock fundamentals and a lot of the blues videos.
[/quote]
Good deal! Thanks for the reply.

Originally Posted by: UllR
I do understand the Major WWHWWWH and Minor WHWWHWW. I think I pretty much have the CMaj and AMin diatonic scales down. It is just easier to learn the Pentatonic and just memorize the shapes/patterns. But I guess that is not helping to memorize the notes. I think I hear the sound much better than I remember where certain notes are.[/quote]
That's good news. In fact, the patterns are just helpful perceptual guides that we use in order to get to the real use: to create sounds we like. So, the goal is to learn to associate & integrate these thing together.

1. Patterns on the guitar.
2. Sounds they make.
3. Physical motions required to use those patterns to make sounds.
[QUOTE=UllR]
I always have to stop and figure out where and which note it is. I think I just feel like I should be soloing with slath when in reality I can play happy birthday.

That's an understandable frustration. Let's take a step back & look at the big picture.

Improvisation has two basic components.

1. Knowledge of the scale or key & the chord progression.
2. An existing repertoire of licks that you can already play.

So you need to be able to do pentatonic patterns & licks like this at a moment's notice. You need to have licks like this completely under your command & play them like they are second nature in time with a beat.

www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=185
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=722
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=737
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=843
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=914

Those kinds of licks are the raw materials & skills that will form your tool kit when you improvise.

Once you gain those physical skills, then you start to work on the conceptual side. You need to understand how to use those scale patterns & the circled numbers that are the scale degrees & intervals; to do something with those pentatonic pattern skills! These tutorials cover the foundation basics of how to approach improvising with those tools.

www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=876
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=483
www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=491

The next step is to practice with the goal of experimentation, trial & error. This is how you build a repertoire of licks that you can already play, a vocabulary of things you can play at the drop of a hat. Improvisation is mostly playing pieces of things you already know, but mixing them up on the spot, artfully rearranging them.

Consider this tutorial.
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=1614

That whole tutorial is only about one lick. But it's such an important, widely used lick, you have to know it if you are going to play standard rock or blues guitar. This is the kind of thing you need to know stone cold up & down. You have to be able to play it anywhere, anytime with lots of variations.

Now, if all this is too advanced, don't worry! Try starting with these simpler tutorials that are aimed at teaching the exact same thing, but from a more beginner level. If you work through these, you can eventually get to the more advanced stuff!

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=170
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=918
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=189
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=723
[QUOTE=UllR]
Anyway I think I am just looking for " THE ANSWER " you know how can I learn faster and what should I focus on and in what order. Anything worthwhile usually takes hard work and time so I guess I will keep plugging away.

I understand! We've all been there as learning guitarists. :) Give these ideas some time & effort. Be patient with yourself. Ask more if necessary & let me know how it goes.

Best of success & Happy New Year! :)

Chris - I watched your videos on Pentatonic shapes but have some questions. So basically the major pentatonic is just the major dyatonic scale without the 4th and 7th notes. Similarly, the minor pentatonic is just the minor dyatonic without the 2nd and 6th notes. I've been trying to learn the major scale patterns as outlined in a book I have. Would I be better off focusing on the pentatonic patterns and then adding in the missing notes to get to dyatonic? There just seems to be so much to memorize. I'm also reading about arpeggio patterns and with all these patterns to memorize it is overwhelming.

Hey, there! Glad you followed my pentatonic lessons. :) Sounds like you got the idea.

Originally Posted by: mrsoul55So basically the major pentatonic is just the major dyatonic scale without the 4th and 7th notes. Similarly, the minor pentatonic is just the minor dyatonic without the 2nd and 6th notes.
[/quote]
Exactly!
[QUOTE=mrsoul55]Would I be better off focusing on the pentatonic patterns and then adding in the missing notes to get to dyatonic?

In general, yes, that's a great plan that helps simplify the overwhelming clutter of fretboard patterns! But you should also consider your goals. If you want to play pop, rock, blues or county, then you'll definitely get the most mileage out of using pentatonic patterns.

If you are aiming for more classical or jazz, then you'll have to get more serious about the diatonic notes. But for most players, it's enough to be able to play some licks & understand how & why the notes work with the chords they are played over.

And remember that even though it can be overwhelming at times, all of these patterns do, in the end, converge. They are all integrated into one overall system of music theory. As a beginner, it's tricky to see how diatonic & pentatonic & arpeggios are integrated into one big package. That they are all just different ways of looking at the same thing. But they are. :)

Take it one step at a time. Make sure you can use the idea you are trying to learn. Make it practical & it will stick in your mind more easily.

Ask more if necessary & best of success!

Thanks, Chris. I'm most interested in rock so I'm going to focus on the pentatonic patterns for now.

Hi I am brand new to all this as well, but I found the best thing for scales and also cords is to have a book on them so I can review if I get a bit lost, there is nothing like having things in black and white.

Hope that helps

newbi Paul