Song "Drown"

I'm looking for as much vocal critisim as possible. Our band is going pro, and we are trying to determine if we should get a new vocalist.

http://www.myspace.com/postalternative

please leave your opinion of the vocals.

I like the vocals in parts. Kind of Ozzy-fied.

Yes, you should. It's not that the vocals are particularly bad but they are not 'pro'. The first thing that gets a any attention at a label is vocals. That's why American Idol is about singers and not guitar players. the vocals as they are seem very strained and don't have the broad, strong sound a current band and should compare to the bands you list as influences.

About 10 years ago, part of my business included a moderately well distributed label. Got mountains and mountains of demos and the first song and first verse almost always were the determining factor. Even with our own schlock little label, we didn't have time to listen to a whole demo to see if we could 'get it'. If we didn't have time to waste on listening to a whole demo, imagine a major.

Vocals first.

Just a note on the song itself. Good, but it tended to drag a little bit. It was a decent vibe but needs a turn around in there somewhere. If it maintains the same vibe throughout, it will lose a listener. You need a riff/section a time or two with a different approach. Think in terms of Cemetery Gates. The song starts with a more melodic vibe and then riffs it up. Alternate a time or two with a counterpoint section.

I also think that should the kind of vocalist you want to look for. A good, clean melodic singer that also can get a deep, growling Phil or Layne Staley deal. Granted, not Easy to find but you want to have vocals that fit your stuff.

So, thoughts...

Damn. My step sister said the same thing that it sounded like Ozzy. I can't stand Ozzy. LoL.

Yeah those high notes are a bitch, but...

We already got offered a record and management deal from an international label, and they are financing everything...

I am more concerned as to weather this could have mass appeal from as many views as possible.

I disagree with the song writting points, as I am a theorist, and composer, with a degree in production. Several producers, including those that had worked with Van Halen said the writing was great...

This particular arrangment, was intended to be sort of bland, and I wouldn't expect many musicians to like it (I ****in Hate It.) It was intended for an "average listener" sort of audience. Porn Star is a bit more complex, and you might be able to appreciate that. It seems to be alot more popular with musicians. Although it isn't as complex as alot of material created by extreme metal, or hardcore groups. I wanted to retain as much appeal to the "average listener" as possible.

I can't remember Layne Staley growling. Most of his style was a pretty high pitched whine (usually people can't hit those high notes that he's got in my experience.) Phil from Pantera would be a bit much for this particular style I think.

Our band auditioned several AIC poser, wanna bes (like 10 different people trying to be Layne LoL,) none of them could do it pro, and we don't want to be another AIC. We also auditioned like 5 other vocalsist who sucked.

Any strategy on how to find one?

Originally Posted by: HambergWe already got offered a record and management deal from an international label, and they are financing everything...[/QUOTE]

If you are ok, what label. I ask because my main business was CD import/export for primarily metal. Dealt with tons of international labels and a little international licensing of some of our label stuff. Curious, really.

Originally Posted by: HambergI am more concerned as to weather this could have mass appeal from as many views as possible.[/QUOTE]

Mass appeal? Not 'Kelly Clarkson' appeal but could have appeal in the less broad underground. Unless you want to do a Daughtry or Nickelback thing, metal is a hard sell.

Originally Posted by: HambergI disagree with the song writting points, as I am a theorist, and composer, with a degree in production. Several producers, including those that had worked with Van Halen said the writing was great...[/QUOTE]

I think it's fair to say that different ears want different things. I've been in the business for 15+ years (although not particularly active recently). What I can say is I've developed an awareness to what people react to. I would never discount what others say because they have great experiences to draw from. Mine is just another perspective.

Just as a note, when I did have a label (about 10 years ago), about half of the artists on the label were artists that had previously been on a major label some years prior. With this, I executive produced a number of things and spent plenty of time in studios for mixdowns and a little of the mastering (if you have a good masterer, you don't need to babysit). It's not a totally uninformed opinion. I have a little of the 'been there' thing.

Also, I was basing my opinion on the one vocal song. I really liked the instrumental stuff more so that the vocal song but my opinion has to be based on what was presented as your direction and by what you started the thread with.

Originally Posted by: HambergThis particular arrangment, was intended to be sort of bland, and I wouldn't expect many musicians to like it (I ****in Hate It.) It was intended for an "average listener" sort of audience. Porn Star is a bit more complex, and you might be able to appreciate that. It seems to be alot more popular with musicians. Although it isn't as complex as alot of material created by extreme metal, or hardcore groups. I wanted to retain as much appeal to the "average listener" as possible.

My opinion is not at all from a musicians perspective. One of my favorite songs is the dumbest, easiest thing to play. It's more from watching when and why people react to stuff.

Reality is, musicians rarely buy much music as compared to the average Joe. It's odd but an observation I had from my years around the biz.

My suggestion in the songwriting has more to do with a hook than complexity. Any song is 'sold' at the chorus. It's the money part of the song. Whether it's Hansen's 'mmm-Bop' or Symphony of Destruction, it has to have a pay off. More than anything, that's my point. I was waiting for the pay off.

Just my opinion, you should never write a song that is purposely bland for mass appeal. You will end up on a shelf somewhere, unsold. Write a great song every time but be mindful that the average listener wants a pay off. It's why such simple stuff sells. It's why Twisted Sister's mega-anthems sell. A pay off in the song.

Either they sing along or their fists pump. I can promise more than anything in the music biz, that's exactly what an exec is looking for. If you have contacts in the business, ask them about the above.

I'm not saying mine is the only opinion as it should not be. It is an experienced opinion that, with others, should be considered.

[QUOTE=Hamberg]I can't remember Layne Staley growling. Most of his style was a pretty high pitched whine (usually people can't hit those high notes that he's got in my experience.) Phil from Pantera would be a bit much for this particular style I think.

The growl was more about Phil but I lumped in Layne for the more gutteral, raspy singing. His voice had lots of breadth to it. Lots of power. More that kind of thing.

[QUOTE=Hamberg]Our band auditioned several AIC poser, wanna bes (like 10 different people trying to be Layne LoL,) none of them could do it pro, and we don't want to be another AIC. We also auditioned like 5 other vocalsist who sucked.

Singer are a rare commodity. I only played in a cover band back in the day but had a pretty good singer. Very hard to come by and have their head on the shoulders to a manageable extent. Very few great singers that aren't head cases.

[QUOTE=Hamberg]Any strategy on how to find one?

...after praying....Keep on working through them. While I gave you an example of who I thought sections for a singer should sound like, my thought is to not look for a certain kind of singer. Just look for a great singer in general and one that will mesh with your music will surface eventually. You just have to go through a million and one goofs to get there.

Good luck.

I'm a bit confused cuz all the songs have hooks, and have some type of harmonic contrast. Perhaps the raw sound is what you are speaking about???
These recordings were created so that a band had "script" to work with. Infact my writting is influenced a great deal by pop punk, and rap as far as structral arrangement is concerned. There's hooks all over that ****. Again, the sonic quality was left raw as I wanted other musicians input.

I really do appreciate that you had been willing to listen and providing your advise, insight, and perception, and perspect of the track.

In my opinion, everyones opinion is priceless when trying to decide on something like this.

However, profession opinions would bear more weight into a final decision. I am a bit curious as to why you are not still with your label, or as to why it had gone out of business. Saying that you were with a label but now your not, doesn't look very credible, actually looks the inverse.

Also executive producers usually have no other roll then financing a project. Of course they can call the shots, since it is their money, however doesn't prove that they are making the correct, or best decision, just the one that they decide is the best if thats is the case.

Additionally, owning a label, executive producing (well those are kind of the same but...) distributing, and licesnseing... ...well they are all different things, and none of them directly credit you as an authority over musical composition, or determining "What is Cool." Deciding what is cool is my job. Even John Lennon said it. We tell them whats cool...

Yes Metal is a hard sell to a limited, while loyal fan base. I meant mass appeal as The Beatles, or Nirvana. And I am by no means comparing us to them. Thats the kind of image we are working on developing, or appeal. I definately do not mean a brittney spears type of Mainstream Pop Appeal, or and American Idol Sell Out Wanna be poser type of appeal. Just honest, keeping it real, the truth, loyal fans, no selling out, radio, television, not showing up to the grammies type of mass appeal. What I like to call "Main Stream Underground."

I would also like to note that neither did I imply, or state that you were a musician. I was suggesting that the song had more appeal to musicians, and typically this is the case with more complex structures. I was suggesting that If you like more complex music, then that would possibilly appeal more to you, as it had with musicians.

I have no interest in disclosing the label information as I do not want to compromise our deal.

Hamberg..I won't quote every thing in your post cuz, well...post mining can drive a person to drink.

To your question about the 'former label', I think you have a fair criticism. If I knew what i was talking about, why didn't I stay?

Any one can start a label and put stuff out once in a while. We could have done that but that isn't a business move but a vanity label. We did the label with the intent of getting the product distributed and did get distribution to chains like Tower etc. The trick in distribution is to regularly release material to satisfy the distro deal. Most distro houses expect 2 release a month, every month. Doesn't sound huge when you think of what majors do but when you are financing any portion of the process from recording, licensing, package design to manufacturing, it is a huge cost for each one. Do that two times a month. This is the deal if you go through anything such as Sony's R.E.D. Distribution etc. It's standard stuff.

So, in order to get a distro without having to meet the '2 fer' requirment, we joined a coalition of labels to group releases to meet that.

Sounds good. Two labels carried all the sales of the group and one was ours. Easy to say if I'm trying to prove something to you but I stand behind it. The distro company we used came to us directly to see if we wanted to skip the group because we had a decent sale record but we couldn't meet the '2 fer'. Then the coalition fell apart because the others weren't selling and getting returns (you have to accept all returns up to 120 days). Also, you don't get paid fro 120 days after invoicing a shipment.

Well, to shorten the story, labels dropped from the group and somehow, we ended up out of $7000 dollars.

Understand, that was a side business to our main business of import/export. So, after this happened, we decided that despite the positive responses we got and still had a Canadian distro deal, that it was a loss and a took too much time from our (still today) profitable business segment.


So, take that for what it's worth. We sold plenty of stuff and even with the lost, broke even. However, breaking even is not good business.

As to executive producers, financing is a large part of the deal. Agreed. I the executive producer is also the label owner, that means that you are paying for it but also needing to make sure that you can sell it. This means that you spend time with bands trying to direct output so that it can meet market needs even in a small niche. One of our better selling releases was a German band we licensed. When they produced a follow up to the release we put out, the 'changed' and we had to decline the new one. It would sell and they were disappointed that we didn't release it. The one we didn't release sold horribly because of changes.

This applies to what Executive Producers can do. Marshall the overall direction. While my example is not exactly that, it speaks to what can happen when you don't. We had a few bands that did follow ups with us and we turned back the recording to them until we knew it would meet the market. So, we weren't always (or even usually) in the studio when recording but we would direct the progress and redirect when it was not up to par.

In lots of cases, unless we trusted them, took care of the mastering and a number of instances with mixing too.

I think the point about producers etc (ie - the John Lennon quote) can be overstated too. You have great non-musicians in the business that could barely play a note if at all that were great ears. David Geffen, Doug Thaler, John Kalodner, Ahmet Ertegun among many that knew it when they heard it and were usually right.

I think, although it's kind of implied because I'm here, that I'm a musician. I've played guitar since '82 and was a serious shredder in the late 80's. I completely bagged on theory and focused on playing by ear (regret...) and thus why I'm here. Theory and also learning some style I always fancied (Joe pass type jazz and some chicken pickin'). My biz partner was a very skilled drummer. So, it's not that we hadn't been around that block.

What does all this prove? Not much. It's mostly telling a story. More to the point, the music world is littered with people that have a similar story to mine. It doesn't discount the experience but point out what a mess you're getting in to. It is also to say that learn from those that went that mile. I sold lots of product...getting paid for it is they key.

So it comes down to composition. I only spoke to the vocal song and otherwise, really like the other ones better. In all this, the point is not to lose the hook. That's all.

Last...if the deal isn't inked for your licensing deal, you shouldn't say anything. It wasn't clear that was the case. So, no worries.