Learning scales

I did a search and was looking for a post on the forum but only run into the lessons which are good but not answering my question ( is there a way to search only the forum? )....I know someone must have asked this already but cant find it so I apologize if this is a repeat

where do you start if you want to learn scales? I have so many books and print outs and web sites but in the end I still am confused at the order they are best learned.

I am interested in many styles of music....metal, rock, blue, jazz and who knows maybe even some country...so that doesnt help with narrowing where to focus....Ive been bouncing around too much and think I just need to write down and order of studying and get settled

do I start with the major scales...say for instance C major and learn it in all positions ( I also get confused as to where all the positions are too..some say 5...some say 7 ) then move on to D major...E major etc in all positions..than the minors?

or

C maj in one position...D maj in one position etc through the majors? Than onto another position...

I feel like I will be in the major scales forever....lololol..there are just soooo many scales...I need help getting something written down to follow. Like if I was sitting down with a teacher and they said here start with these...

Pentatonic is more in the rock rehlm....so I want to get that going a bit too. I recall E and A major and minnor being important before some of the others....is that correct?

and advice would help
I know this is a loaded question...so whatever you can offer

thanks

There's a separate search feature for the forum right next where it says 'New Posts'. You can either do a basic search or an advanced one.

As far as scales go, I can only speak for myself but I found it most important to learn the pentatonic scales first. Especially in the keys of E and A but if you play with a keyboardist, they'll tend to play in C so that key's important as well. After that I moved straight on to 3 note per string scales. The trick being to not only learn the scales, but learn them backwards and forwards and up and down the neck. Switching positions and doing things like skipping strings.

Several people have lessons on these. Mine are still in the older low definition video format & I think there's even some old ASCII text in there but they're here if you want to look at them.

http://guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=3050&c_id=8&ch_id=43&s_id=28


Another cool trick is to learn every scale starting with an upstroke as well as you normally would. In other words, instead of starting with a downstroke and using alternate picking ie, down/up/down/up. Start with an upstroke and go the opposite way. If you learn all your scales both ways you'll be a lot more proficient at switching things up in mid scale.

You also might look up economy picking as well. Basically, every time you play an ascending scale (going up), you use a downstroke on the next string.
When you descend, you use alternate picking. That way you're doing less pick movement than strictly sticking with alternate picking.

Originally Posted by: Itsmesilly ... ( is there a way to search only the forum? ) ...
[/quote]
See the red/burgandy navigation bar above with the following links:
Account, FAQ, Calendar, New Posts, Search ...

Use that Search to search the Forum. Click the arrow to the right of the word Search to expand the pull down menu to use the Advanced Search:
http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/search.php?
[QUOTE=Itsmesilly]
where do you start if you want to learn scales?

The diatonic major scale is the foundation of all Western Music (from Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romanticism, to Jazz, Pop, Rock, etc.). From there this is the standard order:

1. Diatonic Major scale
2. Diatonic Minor scale
3. Pentatonic Major scale
4. Pentatonic Minor scale

See these lessons:
http://www.guitartricks.com/course.php?input=2
Chapter one shows how to understand, play and practice scales.
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=453

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=296
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=185


And these threads:
http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28128
http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28415
http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28057
http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28087

Hope this helps. Please ask more specific questions as they occur to you!

once you learn a shape or box...are they all movable?
just renamed based in the root note or where the scale starts? 3rd fret 6th string G....moved up to 5th than its an A scale?

Originally Posted by: Itsmesillyonce you learn a shape or box...are they all movable?
just renamed based in the root note or where the scale starts? 3rd fret 6th string G....moved up to 5th than its an A scale?

Yes! :)

Maintain the same shape and move it around. All scales are like that on the guitar. This is because every scale has a formula it is built from. Every major scale has the same exact formula.

So take any of the three shapes in this lesson image:
http://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=10666

It is a C major scale as shown. Move any pattern up 1 fret it becomes a C-sharp major scale. Move it up 1 more fret, it becomes a D major scale.

Make sense?

Pentatonics are fun... Been studying up on those lately. Fun to try and build up speed with them.

in understanding myself and how I work...Ive realized im a tactile / visual learner and do a lot of repetition for memorization....I will write things over until they finally sink in...the last guitar teacher I had I dont think understood that I learned a lot from the writing...I mean I know that it is important to do the hands on practicing part too..lolol..but he was always shocked when he saw the charts and crap that I wrote out.....

so anyway I "write" the neck out ( at work I have time where I cant play a guitar and utilize the time with pen and paper ) so....I note where all the a's are where all the c's are etc.....

right now I am working on learning and knowing the major scales and the order of sharps and flats....

my question is this.....if I know where a note is on the guitar....and I know what notes are in a particular scale...then can I just find it on the neck and move to the next note in the scale and so on...to find the whole scale on the neck? Do all root notes start on the 5th and 6th string? The root note is what names the scale yes?

wow does that make any sense because i think I confused myself...lololol

thanks
sorry if I made this confusing

Now, I'm far from a professional, and not terribly experienced in music theory so dont take my word as gospel here, but when you are looking at the shapes of the various scales, the root notes are going to fall onto those lowest strings. That doesnt mean you cant start on say the d or g string, and make a note on those strings your "root" while playing through a scale, but for the sake of seeing the whole shape on the neck, I believe that you would say the root is on that e and a string, just because from there you can see the entire shape of the scale in question across the neck.
So...to think about it this way, play through your scales, and wherever you start them just look at the shape you are using and follow it backwards to see what scale that might be.
Again, I may not be correct on this so if anyone else can correct me (GT instructor staff :P) please do....I would appreciate being corrected myself so i would know...

Originally Posted by: Itsmesillyright now I am working on learning and knowing the major scales and the order of sharps and flats....[/quote]
It is better start by simply understanding ONE major scale, the C major scale. Then, realize that every major scale has the same formula and therefore pattern on the guitar.

The different sharps and flats are merely a result of applying the scale formula to each musical alphabet note at a time. Put the 1 of a scale on a G note, apply the scale formula and you will get the same pattern as a C major scale, but with the scale degrees (the circled numbers of my lesson diagrams) on different musical letters.

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 1
C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
G - A - B - C - D - E - F# - G

And so on. But it's the same pattern on the fretboard however with the 1 (the scale root note) moved over from a C to a G.

The reason every scale has it's own unique system of sharps and flats is a result, a consequence of the more important and fundamental concept: the scale formula.

So before you torture yourself trying to memorize the notes and sharps and flats of 12 "different" major scales and 12 "different" minor scales ... grasp this concept first: every major scale has the same formula and therefore pattern on the guitar. Learn the formula and how to apply it anywhere on the guitar fretboard. Play it all the time, draw it when you are away from your guitar.

Originally Posted by: Itsmesilly
my question is this.....if I know where a note is on the guitar....and I know what notes are in a particular scale...then can I just find it on the neck and move to the next note in the scale and so on...to find the whole scale on the neck?
[/quote]
The concept you are struggling to grasp is the issue of the scale formula. Do you understand what I have written above?
[QUOTE=Itsmesilly]Do all root notes start on the 5th and 6th string?

No. Any note, anywhere on the guitar (or any instrument) can be a root note. We simply use the 5th and 6th strings as convenient reference starting points for beginners.
[QUOTE=Itsmesilly]
The root note is what names the scale yes?

Not entirely.

The root note give the scale it's musical alphabet letter name:
C major scale

As opposed to C-sharp, D, D-sharp, D, etc.

The scale formula provides the type of scale:
C major scale

As opposed to minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor, etc.

as long as this is the discussion, i would also like to ask a bit about other scales...i keep seeing different names tossed...phyrigian, aeolian, dorian etc...what differentiates these scales? I dont really know how they are shaped or anything like that...or is there a specific type of music they each apply to better than others?

Originally Posted by: liarcangel ... i would also like to ask a bit about other scales...i keep seeing different names tossed...phyrigian, aeolian, dorian etc...what differentiates these scales?

Those are called modes. Specifically, they are the modes of the diatonic major scale.

See this tutorial here on my modes:

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=370

Modes can be used in a functional manner or ornamental manner.

By scale formula do you mean the "wwhwwwh" concept of the major scales?
I do understand that and how it applies to the scales....
I have written down scales and have been learning how chords are constructed and where the roman numerals come in and all...

I definitly try to swallow more than I can chew...and I know it can trip me up at times

another question ( as I read I try to write my questions down ) ....what is a "related minor" I dont understand how for the Cmaj scale , Am is the related minor...


I know I am mostl likely 20 paces ahead of myself...its the way I roll...lolol.. You should have seen me in college..I drove my profs crazy because I always asked so many questions they could never stay on the intended path of the class...

thanks for your patience

Same here. I just have to write stuff down for it to sink in. I have printed out blank fretboards for scales and chords but I haven't done like you said and found all the "A" notes. Thats a great idea! I know you were going farther than just finding the one note really makes sense. Thanks for the tip,

Ed

Originally Posted by: ItsmesillyBy scale formula do you mean the "wwhwwwh" concept of the major scales?[/quote]
Yes, precisely.

Every type of scale has it's own unique formula. But that formula is what you apply to all 12 possible musical alphabet letter notes.

All major scales have this formula:
1 (WS) 2 (WS) 3 (HS) 4 (WS) 5 (WS) 6 (WS) 7 (HS) 1

All minor scales have this formula:
1 (WS) 2 (HS) 3 (WS) 4 (WS) 5 (HS) 6 (WS) 7 (WS) 1

Originally Posted by: Itsmesilly
I do understand that and how it applies to the scales....
[/quote]
Careful there! I am splitting hairs here, but this is an important point: The formula of intervals is not something you apply to a scale; rather, the scale is that formula of intervals applied to the guitar (or any musical instrument).

Conceptually, the formula IS the scale.

Originally Posted by: Itsmesilly
I have written down scales and have been learning how chords are constructed and where the roman numerals come in and all...

I definitly try to swallow more than I can chew...and I know it can trip me up at times

OK, fair enough. I want to offer a suggestion at this point though. Sometimes I've had students that want to understand more theory than they can actual use at a certain point. Some of them wound up knowing lots of great concepts and info.

But they never bothered to keep their playing and aural skills growing at the same pace!

As a result they knew lots of theory, but couldn't play anything. Worse, because they never played enough, they never built their aural skills. They could not hear the theory they "knew about" in their own playing or music they listened to. :(
[QUOTE=Itsmesilly]another question ( as I read I try to write my questions down ) ....what is a "related minor" I dont understand how for the Cmaj scale , Am is the related minor...

Minor scales are derived from major scales by reassigning scale degrees. The 6th major scale degree is reassigned as the 1st degree of the minor scale degree. The major 7th scale degree becomes the 2nd minor scale degree. And so on.

c - d - e - f - g - a - b - c
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 1

c - d - e - f - g - a - b - c - d - e - f - g - a - b - c
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 1

(c - d - e - f - g -) a - b - c - d - e - f - g - a
(3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 -) 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 1

The result is that the same set of intervals get "shifted over". This is the origin of the modes. The minor scale is aeolian; the sixth mode of the major scale.

Why do we do this? In order to get different sounds and then have a way of identifying them as unique, and have a way or conceptually organizing them.
[QUOTE=Itsmesilly]thanks for your patience

You are quite welcome. :)

I do sincerely love to discuss theory. And especially with GT subscribers that have a likewise sincere interest. Please just make sure your playing and aural skills keep up with your theory knowledge.

Chris
Thanks for the info....
I totally hear what you are saying
and my former guitar teacher said the same thing...
dont just stick with books...pick up the guitar ( he was also happy I wanted to learn jazz as well as some theory..and actually curious about it )

My main reason for jumping into the theory thing head first is well...1 I really want to understand it. I want someone to say hey I am playing in the key of A and me be able to do something. I was jamming some great jazz chords and a guy ( who is an amazinggggg guitarist ) asked me what key I was playing and I had no clue...thats when I said ok I have to fix that..I mean I still cant but Im better off then I was. I will get there but im in no rush.

and 2....I have time at work so rather than read a magazine or sit in front of the tv...and I am away from my guitar I feel the need to be doing something to move forward with music. I cant play at work...so I can try to read and understand....and part of that is I also learn by repetition and writing things over and over....asking lots of questions etc. Soooo by doing all that Im not getting it right away on the first shot, but eventually it all clicks and I get it.

I appreciate the time and patience.....

Hi all

Don't mean to hijack the thread but just want to add a quick comment.

Chris:

The way you explained the scale "formula" here was a ephiphany for me. I looked in the GF2 course 2 weeks ago and it freaked me out.

But that same stuff now suddenly makes sense after starting the Cmajor scale lesson.

Thanks a billion :D

Regards

Noxx

Originally Posted by: Kevin TaylorThere's a separate search feature for the forum right next where it says 'New Posts'. You can either do a basic search or an advanced one.

As far as scales go, I can only speak for myself but I found it most important to learn the pentatonic scales first. Especially in the keys of E and A but if you play with a keyboardist, they'll tend to play in C so that key's important as well. After that I moved straight on to 3 note per string scales. The trick being to not only learn the scales, but learn them backwards and forwards and up and down the neck. Switching positions and doing things like skipping strings.

Several people have lessons on these. Mine are still in the older low definition video format & I think there's even some old ASCII text in there but they're here if you want to look at them.

http://guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=3050&c_id=8&ch_id=43&s_id=28


Another cool trick is to learn every scale starting with an upstroke as well as you normally would. In other words, instead of starting with a downstroke and using alternate picking ie, down/up/down/up. Start with an upstroke and go the opposite way. If you learn all your scales both ways you'll be a lot more proficient at switching things up in mid scale.

You also might look up economy picking as well. Basically, every time you play an ascending scale (going up), you use a downstroke on the next string.
When you descend, you use alternate picking. That way you're doing less pick movement than strictly sticking with alternate picking.

Wow, good stuff my man! Its nice to see some of the places that all of this scale work can lead you. Thanks again

why cant I get to this link? That kevin Taylor posted

http://guitartricks.com/lesson.php?...h_id=43&s_id=28

it says full access required which I do have.
so I tried to go to kevin taylors instructor page and go directly to the lesson and it also says there I have to have a full membership....and I do!
what gives?
anyone?

Just login again when it asks u too. Worked for me a few weeks ago

Originally Posted by: NoxxioThe way you explained the scale "formula" here was a ephiphany for me ... Thanks a billion

You are welcome. :) Glad to hear you are making it come together.