new in music theory! need help please..

i've been playing guitar for like 5 yrs. i can play, in fact i can do some technical metal riffs,. my hands are trained enough to learn music theory.

where should i start in learning music theory?
and please teach me.

thanks!

I think I'm in the same boat as you. I can play, but I don't know the theory behind it....and I've been playing for about 12 years now.

really? i think i cant wait for another 7 yrs. just to learn the theory. hehe, no offense men. i hope someone will help us in this site,

i wanna be a real technical metal guitar player thats why..LOLS

Yay for theory.

Learn your note names on the guitar.

Learn your scales, and then learn why they're scales. Learn the patterns for major and minor, learn your note names even more.

Learn how to construct chords, and learn how to name them fully and properly.

Work on modality until you understand the concept.

Learn what chords fit where, and likewise, which chords don't fit where.

Learn how to take a chord that doesn't fit, and use it to express yourself.

Learn all the rules, then proceed to break them in structured way.

That's my advice.

you should probably start at the beginning. dont feel bad about learning theory yet.

i would suggest you start with the scale theory sections, and the chord theroy setion. another thing you really need to learn that helped me the most in theroy is the circle of fifths. look it up here or google it.

learn your scales:
major
minor
pentatonic
exotic
and your modes (this is where the circle gomes in handy the most)
and the others ones

learn your chords:
major
minor
dom
aug
7th
9th
11th
13th
and the other ones.

most of this stuff you can learn to cheat on. by learning the formula you can 'make' your own chords and scales(they probable already exist somewhere else). it will help you think about the fretboard in new ways.

thats a pretty good place to start but you might ask one of the instructors to narrow down where.

one last note since im working on this too, take little bites. youll do a whole lot better if you dont overload your brain.

Originally Posted by: ZakJenkinsYay for theory.

Learn your note names on the guitar.

Learn your scales, and then learn why they're scales. Learn the patterns for major and minor, learn your note names even more.

Learn how to construct chords, and learn how to name them fully and properly.

Work on modality until you understand the concept.

Learn what chords fit where, and likewise, which chords don't fit where.

Learn how to take a chord that doesn't fit, and use it to express yourself.

Learn all the rules, then proceed to break them in structured way.

That's my advice.

well here are the things I've been studying like for 3 or 4 months (thanks to the internet):

1. note placement in the fretboard
2. i know whats the formula behind major and minor scales, yet i don't know why they're scales.
3. chord construction? is that the "triad" thing where you can extend it? well i have a little idea.
4. i know the different modes, but still i don't get the "concept" and what and where they are used.

things i still don't know and desperate to understand:

1. i don't know what chords to use when i try to make some riffs of my own. i just follow what my ear says - sounds good or not. i don't know what chord fits in a specific place and those that doesn't.

2. rules? what are they?

Originally Posted by: BrokenJerayou should probably start at the beginning. dont feel bad about learning theory yet.

i would suggest you start with the scale theory sections, and the chord theroy setion. another thing you really need to learn that helped me the most in theroy is the circle of fifths. look it up here or google it.

learn your scales:
major
minor
pentatonic
exotic
and your modes (this is where the circle gomes in handy the most)
and the others ones

learn your chords:
major
minor
dom
aug
7th
9th
11th
13th
and the other ones.

most of this stuff you can learn to cheat on. by learning the formula you can 'make' your own chords and scales(they probable already exist somewhere else). it will help you think about the fretboard in new ways.

thats a pretty good place to start but you might ask one of the instructors to narrow down where.

one last note since im working on this too, take little bites. youll do a whole lot better if you dont overload your brain.

i think i wouldn't feel bad when learning the theory, i really am interested in understanding everything about music because i think it will help my playing develop and progress.

ok, after i have reviewed my major and minor scale lessons, ill go straight to pentatonic scales and the rest. are there really exotic scales?

modes really makes me confused. i already know CO5, but cant incorporate the idea with modes. damn..LOLS

ok, ill refine my ideas about chord construction.

there are tons of exoctic scales? have you ever really listened to russian chinese tropical blues jazz or napolionic music? it all sounds just a bit different and thats where the sound comes from.


have you learned the chords behind the modes?? lets look at a few modes of C to help you along.

c= ionian cmaj chord this is c major scale any way.
d= dorian you might use a d min or d min9 here
skipping ahead
b= locrian b dim for instance.

im still working on this stuff too so i cant really give you all the wheres and why fors. but i can help enough.

if you run through the modes they will sound just like the major scale. try using the dim or min chords on backing or recornd your self on computer/radio/ pocket recorder playing these chords. you start to hear each one is different and has a distinct sound to it.

the best use of the modes i know of is it allows you to still be in a certain key but play notes scales and chord that dont fit. so for instance you can play in c and have a really dark sound by using b=locrian.

there are more uses than you might think for all this stuff.

oh those are them huh? i have lots of them in my guitar pro.. haha, i got dizzy when i tried them.

Originally Posted by: BrokenJerahave you learned the chords behind the modes??[/QUOTE]

chords behind modes? no i guess, enlighten me. :)

[QUOTE=BrokenJera]the best use of the modes i know of is it allows you to still be in a certain key but play notes scales and chord that dont fit. so for instance you can play in c and have a really dark sound by using b=locrian.

hmm so its like a screen that allows the player to select only the appropriate notes? does that mean that when you use a particular mode,not all the notes in a certain scale may be used? just to clear my curious head.

so are the modes placed only in a specific area of the fretboard?

thanks dude,

and another question, do i have to memorize every scale of the notes or i just have to understand how they are made and remember their formulas? :D

Originally Posted by: metal.totoand another question, do i have to memorize every scale of the notes or i just have to understand how they are made and remember their formulas? :D

you dont need to learn every single scale there is. that would take years and would be very dull and if you ever actually finsihed you might not even be able to play the guitar afterwards. do you think even the best players here memorized everything? that why we learn theory, so we dont need to learn every thing.

the circle of fifths is one tool you do need to learn. but ill help you with a little major scale trick i know.

in the key of C a I IV V progression is C F G (they are actually 7th chords but its ok for now)

that gives us the scale notes of C F G ,easy.

the notes of a C major Triad (a 3 note chord the basis for most c major chords) are C E G or 1 3 5. the 1st note the third and the fifth.

that gives use the scale notes of C E F G.

for the 7th note things get complex. the 7th note of a major scale is always a half step below the 8 th note (the root note same and the first note) so that makes it a B

so now we have the scale notes of C E F G B
follow me so far?
the 6th mode of every key is the aoleian also know as the minor scale. in the case of C which note is the relative minor? if B is the 7th what could it be? well now we apply a new 'formula to our scale. W means whole step and H means half step. so here we go:

WWHWWWH


following that formula we know that A is the 6th note and if we use it to figure out the second note we find D as the second note. so now we have C major

C D E F G A B.

it goes alot faster in my head, this way might not work for you but im sure you can find your own way.

sorry for the double post but i wanted to seperate my ideas.

the chords behind the modes is what i call them because i dont know a better name. these are the chords that 'sound' with a mode. if you learn the overall basic shapes for the chords as you learn modes youll get them into their right places.

a mode can be played anywhere on the neck as long as you have the right notes. and just because a mode calls for A flat doesnt mean you have to play A flat, you might play G sharp instead ( just kidding). the modes allow you to express your sound diferent ly without changing the key. if you only had the major minor and pentatonics to use music would get dull fast. the modes are really only a guide for the right notes of a key your ear tells you what you should play for your sound. add notes take notes away all you want its your sound not the Ahole that invented modes sound.

one last little note, learn the notes on the fret board that will get you the most use out of theory.

i bet your more confused now. dont worry think on it for a while.

Modes are all well and good, but personally I feel they should come later, it's good that you've been learning your note names, I suggest learning how to make chords, as the rhythm can make your lead sound completely different.

In a C major scale, you have 7 different notes, C, D, E, F, G, A, B. Each of those serves a different purpose. The reason it's a major scale is because it follows the formula WWHWWWH, where W is a whole step (2 frets) and H is a half step (1 fret). Now, a triad, which is one of the most basic chords you can construct, is usually made by "stacking 3rds", meaning taking every other note and playing them. Cmaj triad, C, E ,G. When you play your scale, try stopping on different notes, they feel unfinished most of the time, unless you stop on a C. Since it's a C maj scale, the C is the most stable note, called the tonic. Since you started there, that's where your ear wants to return to, because the brain likes to hear things it's heard before. So, if you want to bring some resolution, you can end on a C chord if you're in C. It's the tonic. =D

Now, say you took those 7 notes in the C scale, but instead of playing them from C to C as we did before, we played from a different scale degree. Say we played from D to D? D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D. That's not a major scale, because your intervals are WHWWWHW. It's called the Dorian mode, and it's a minor mode, 'cause if you build a triad off of your tonic, it's D, F, A, which is a minor chord. So, if you wanted to play a piece in a minor key, but were tired of your minor scale, you could take your Dm chord progression, but play a D Dorian scale over it, which would create some tension on your 6th scale degree, (D minor has a Bb, but you're playing a B.)

So, that's my rant on modes, hopefully you understand them a bit more, good luck!

some clarifications please! thanks.

Originally Posted by: BrokenJera
in the key of C a I IV V progression is C F G (they are actually 7th chords but its ok for now)
[/QUOTE]

what is I IV V progression? is it a type of a cord progression? would it matter if i change it to 1 4 5 progression?

Originally Posted by: BrokenJera
the notes of a C major Triad (a 3 note chord the basis for most c major chords) are C E G or 1 3 5. the 1st note the third and the fifth.

that gives use the scale notes of C E F G
[/QUOTE]

are you saying, a 3rd note chord - which is E, is the basis of most C major chords?what do you mean by "basis of most C major chords"? are these the
C Major chords - Cmaj with extensions like Cmaj7?

Originally Posted by: BrokenJera
it goes alot faster in my head, this way might not work for you but im sure you can find your own way.

yea that is true. i do it through the Circle of fifths. sometimes i even do the key signature calculation you know that?

[QUOTE=BrokenJera]
if you learn the overall basic shapes for the chords as you learn modes youll get them into their right places.

so you mean i have to fully understand cord construction first?

[QUOTE=ZakJenkins]
Now, say you took those 7 notes in the C scale, but instead of playing them from C to C as we did before, we played from a different scale degree. Say we played from D to D? D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D. That's not a major scale, because your intervals are WHWWWHW. It's called the Dorian mode, and it's a minor mode, 'cause if you build a triad off of your tonic, it's D, F, A, which is a minor chord. So, if you wanted to play a piece in a minor key, but were tired of your minor scale, you could take your Dm chord progression, but play a D Dorian scale over it, which would create some tension on your 6th scale degree, (D minor has a Bb, but you're playing a B.)

So, that's my rant on modes, hopefully you understand them a bit more, good luck!

heres what i understand. modes are like other scales of a specific note. let us say Cmaj, you can stick with the traditional Cmaj scale or just use another mode so your stuff would sound diff.. is that right? please comment on my idea. thanks

Originally Posted by: metal.totosome clarifications please! thanks.



what is I IV V progression? is it a type of a cord progression? would it matter if i change it to 1 4 5 progression?

[/QUOTE]

In standard music notation, chords are named according to their place in the scale. They're named with roman numerals, capital for major, lowercase for minor. I would be the first chord (C), and it's capital, so Cmaj, then F, the 4th (C, D, E, F) Then G, the 5th.

Originally Posted by: metal.toto

are you saying, a 3rd note chord - which is E, is the basis of most C major chords?what do you mean by "basis of most C major chords"? are these the
C Major chords - Cmaj with extensions like Cmaj7?

[/QUOTE]

The basis of most chords is three notes. The First note in their scale, the 3rd note in their scale, and the 5th. That's a triad.

[QUOTE=metal.toto]
so you mean i have to fully understand cord construction first?

Yes! It's one of the most important parts of music. It may seem difficult now, but if you're willing to learn, you'll pick it up quickly.

[QUOTE=metal.toto]
heres what i understand. modes are like other scales of a specific note. let us say Cmaj, you can stick with the traditional Cmaj scale or just use another mode so your stuff would sound diff.. is that right? please comment on my idea. thanks

Well, If you're in C major, the formula for a C major chord is C, E, G. So we think of all the scales that have a C, E, and a G in them, and we can play those over our C major with out crashing. Those scales would be G (Just an F#) and F (Just a Bb) If you play the notes of a G scale over a C, that makes your mode C Lydian. F would be C Mixolydian. Lydian has a Modern Rock, Ambient feel. Mixo's good for Funk and Blues.

Originally Posted by: ZakJenkins
Well, If you're in C major, the formula for a C major chord is C, E, G. So we think of all the scales that have a C, E, and a G in them, and we can play those over our C major with out crashing.
[/QUOTE]

so thats how you accompany a specific chord with a scale? but, how can you say if a scale would crash against Cmaj?

[QUOTE=ZakJenkins]
If you play the notes of a G scale over a C, that makes your mode C Lydian. F would be C Mixolydian. Lydian has a Modern Rock, Ambient feel. Mixo's good for Funk and Blues.

when you play G scale into C, do you have to avoid the F# note or you can play it?

Well, Generally, a note in your lead clashes if it's a half step away from a chord tone in your rhythm. Like if someone's playing a C maj, you generally wouldn't wanna wail on that C#.

And You definitely shouldn't avoid that F#, but rather embrace it and use it to give your C maj some colour.

so in choosing what chords you can play in a certain key note, you select the
I - IV - V note in the scale of the key note? only I - IV - V?

thats a whole nother 30 or so post right there. let this stuff sink in a little and try to start using some of what was posted, you most likey already have way too much info infornt of you, and that can makes things harder. take little bites and let them digest a while, then when you have this stuff good enough where you can use it, well all go down that road and get lost together.

I think you're trying to look at this like a set formula, like if they play X I play Y, but it's really all up to interpretation.

I, IV, V, is a chord progression.