Phrygian different in two lessons


jimmynitcher
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jimmynitcher
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04/01/2008 7:08 pm
Modes Across the fretboard Lesson 9 and Pentatonic scales Lesson 4

Is this right ?

Either way I'll learn something..

thanks

J
# 1
light487
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light487
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04/01/2008 9:58 pm
Chris can probably explain this a lot better than I can but put simply, the Phrygian mode is not a scale all by itself. It is relative to the Ionian (aka Major scale) mode. It starts from the 3rd note in the relative Ionian scale, and starts again on the 10th note (or 3rd note but one octave higher) of the Ionian scale. So both representations are actually correct because they are playing the same relative notes.


Looking at the C Major scale for an example:
C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

I'll just extend it to two octaves to help with the above explanation:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

Ionian
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C D E F G A B

Dorian
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
D E F G A B C

Phrygian
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
E F G A B C D

And so on...



Hope this helps.. if not, let us know.
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jimmynitcher
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jimmynitcher
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04/02/2008 2:58 pm
Thanks for that but I made a mistake - sorry, I meant Mixolydian, it appears to be in the Aeolian shape. (Of lesson 9)

And if you say the same answer applies, then I'm really confused because I can't see how the relativity you speak of can produce a different shape, as there would be no point in having the shapes in the first place.

Then again I cant see why the scale numbers in lesson 4 need to differ either so I shall do some more study - I am dying to crack this its driving me crazy.

thanks again
# 3
ChristopherSchlegel
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04/02/2008 3:53 pm
Originally Posted by: jimmynitcherAnd if you say the same answer applies, then I'm really confused because I can't see how the relativity you speak of can produce a different shape, as there would be no point in having the shapes in the first place.

Check your email. :)

In general the answer is that it is possible to play the same note in more than one place on the guitar.

So it's not a matter of "relativity". The notes are what they are. It is simply that you can get different shapes depending upon the multiple possible locations of the notes.

See this:
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=419
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jimmynitcher
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jimmynitcher
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04/02/2008 7:45 pm
OK great, thanks for the explanation - I'm going to study this now and let you know how I get on.

Really appreciate your help, this is a great site - I've just got a mental block on this for some reason and the more different explanations I have really helps, the penny will drop eventually!

Thanks for the email too, I missed it as it went into my spam folder for some reason,

j :)
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jimmynitcher
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jimmynitcher
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04/02/2008 9:40 pm
Still confused..

So if I wanted my Phrygian box to be in the key of C would I start it at the 12th fret or the eighth?

thanks for your patience

j
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Jolly McJollyson
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04/02/2008 11:09 pm
Originally Posted by: light487the Phrygian mode is not a scale all by itself.

Yes it is. It can be in all different keys. It just depends on what the root note is. E Phrygian is a scale all by itself.
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Jolly McJollyson
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04/02/2008 11:33 pm
Originally Posted by: light487

Looking at the C Major scale for an example:
C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

I'll just extend it to two octaves to help with the above explanation:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

Ionian
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C D E F G A B

Dorian
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
D E F G A B C

Phrygian
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
E F G A B C D

And so on...


I think this is pretty misleading.

This:
Phrygian
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
E F G A B C D

Should be this:
Phrygian
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
E F G A B C D

In E Phrygian, the root note is "E." Therefore, "E" should be designated as one. E Phrygian does not exist as some redundant extension of C Ionian. E Phrygian is an entity unto itself, with its own root note and its own unique octave.
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light487
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04/03/2008 2:19 am
Jolly:
Well.. I was trying to explain the modes a different way to hopefully shed some light on how they are constructed and relate back to the Ionian mode. I agree with what you said though.

If I say "E Phrygian" then I am not only defining the 3rd mode but also which Major scale that mode belongs to, so it becomes a scale: the E Phrygian Scale. However, If I just say "Phrygian" it's more do with the concept of modal theory.. well at least that's how I see it in my head. :D

I am only a relative newbie to music theory, so I may simply have my wires crossed somewhere. :)
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jimmynitcher
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jimmynitcher
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04/03/2008 5:29 pm
Aha! so if I am in E Phrygian the shape for it starts on the E.

So the next thing I need to know is do the D Dorian behind it and all the other patterns on the fretboard relative to this starting point in fact become part of the Phrygian scale and have the Phrygian 'sound' as a result?

Please say yes :o

thanks very much for this
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ChristopherSchlegel
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04/03/2008 6:06 pm
Originally Posted by: jimmynitcherAha! so if I am in E Phrygian the shape for it starts on the E.[/quote]
If you want to play in E "any scale", you put the Circled 1 (the 1st scale degree, the root note) on that note - the note E. All scales, modes and keys work like this.

In E major the root note (the Circled number 1 of the frerboard patterns) is on E.
In E dorian the root note (the Circled number 1 of the frerboard patterns) is on E.
In E phrygian the root note (the Circled number 1 of the frerboard patterns) is on E.
Or F major the root note (the Circled number 1 of the frerboard patterns) is on F.
In F dorian the root note (the Circled number 1 of the frerboard patterns) is on F.

And so on. :)
[QUOTE=jimmynitcher]
So the next thing I need to know is do the D Dorian behind it and all the other patterns on the fretboard relative to this starting point in fact become part of the Phrygian scale and have the Phrygian 'sound' as a result?

Yes, it sounds like you understand better now.

They are all integrated together. It depends upon which note you pick as the Circled 1-root note. They all have the same letters and patterns (simply shifted up and down the fretboard).

Consider that C major scale has seven notes:
c - d - e - f - g - a

If you regard the note "c" as the 1st scale degree, the root note, then all the others fall in line as scale degrees 2, 3, 4, etc. And this is the ionian mode. If you regard the note "d" as the 1, root note of those notes, then you have dorian mode.

C ionian is D dorian is E phrygian is F lydian is G mixolydian is A locrian. They all have the exact same collection of notes. They have different mode names depending upon which note letter you designate as the 1, the root note.
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light487
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04/03/2008 6:42 pm
Right.

See that's what I was trying to say but in another way. See.. I don't know where every single note on the entire fretboard is.. I don't think I ever will to be honest. :o

So what I do is I go...

1. I need to play E Phrygian.
2. E Phrygian is based on the C Major scale.
3. Find C Major scale on guitar (in the 3 or 4 moveable shapes I know how to play it)
4. Start from (and end on) the 3rd degree/note of those C Major scale shapes.

Ideally I would like to know where each note is on the guitar. Ideally I would like to be able to work in terms of raised 4ths and lowered 7ths because that's how theory people tend to talk about scales.. but I am a very practical person, though also analytical and I get easily confused by all of that...

Conventional theory is great if you understand it.. but I tend not to understand it till I make it work for me.. then the methodology I used to understand it becomes my theory, not the original "correct" theory. :) I think it's great to be able to have 2 or 3 different ways of looking at the same thing because if someone is not getting it by one method, they can always look at the other method until understanding hits, then what the original person was saying starts to make sense too. :)

So if I grab my little thing again:

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

Ionian
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - Relative positions to C Major scale
C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - I added these lines but I don't really see how it helps
if you didn't already understand the theory stuff in the
first place.

Dorian
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 - Relative positions to C Major scale
D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - D Dorian scale

Phrygian
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 - Relative positions to C Major scale
E F G A B C D
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - E Phrygian scale


You can see my methodology of finding the E Phrygian and ANY Phrygian mode, not the true theory of it...
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equator
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04/03/2008 7:43 pm
Originally Posted by: CSchlegel
C ionian is D dorian is E phrygian is F lydian is G mixolydian is A locrian. They all have the exact same collection of notes. They have different mode names depending upon which note letter you designate as the 1, the root note.


I think you made a mistake there CSchlegel.
A Locrian is not realative to C Ionian, it is relative to Bb Major.
Someday I`ll play like in my dreams.

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Jolly McJollyson
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04/03/2008 8:26 pm
Originally Posted by: equatorI think you made a mistake there CSchlegel.
A Locrian is not realative to C Ionian, it is relative to Bb Major.

Equator is right.
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jimmynitcher
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04/03/2008 9:02 pm
Well I'm a very happy bunny now because I'm quite good at remembering box shapes, so I'll just learn them - the beauty of this system seems to me to be that unlike pentatonic erm scales I learned from ages ago, with modes you learn the same bunch of shapes but have 7 different 'sounds' you end up with.

I also feel a little miffed I don't know all the names of every string on every fret, is there a good shorthand for this I wonder?

Thanks again to everyone!

j
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light487
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04/03/2008 9:22 pm
Originally Posted by: equatorI think you made a mistake there CSchlegel.
A Locrian is not realative to C Ionian, it is relative to Bb Major.


Chris made a mistake! :eek: We need to archive his post for future generations! ;)

Hehehehe..
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Jolly McJollyson
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04/03/2008 9:32 pm
Originally Posted by: light487Chris made a mistake! :eek: We need to archive his post for future generations! ;)

Hehehehe..

Hey, everybody makes mistakes.

Except for me. I do not make mistakes.
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Jolly McJollyson
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04/03/2008 9:33 pm
Originally Posted by: jimmynitcherI also feel a little miffed I don't know all the names of every string on every fret, is there a good shorthand for this I wonder?

Not that I know of, but try memorizing just one string at a time. Makes it a lot easier.
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light487
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04/03/2008 9:38 pm
Originally Posted by: Jolly McJollysonNot that I know of, but try memorizing just one string at a time. Makes it a lot easier.


HA!! :)

You used a comma before the word but!

:p
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Jolly McJollyson
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04/03/2008 10:02 pm
Originally Posted by: light487HA!! :)

You used a comma before the word but!

:p

Yeah, that's the American format. I assume they don't do that in Australia?
I want the bomb
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