many opinions....

in light of the so many opinions everyone expresses, including myself, on all the current events, lets keep one thing in mind. opinions are like assholes, everyone has one!

but one opinion i have that i will keep expressing is this. bin laden, his followers, and supporters, should die the slowest, crudest, most painful death, more so than even their f**ked up minds can cook up. if you don't agree with me, well, let me check.....NOPE! I DON'T CARE!

You're right there: There is never an excuse for their kind of violence.

What I try to keep in mind is that though there is no excuse, there are reasons why they do what they do.

As I have made mention of before, this whole situation is on a largely personal level. Osama is a real person just like the people in the towers he allegedly but not admittedly killed, and punishing him in any way other than in a normal humane way would violate the cruel and unusual punishment part of our constitution, and if you compromise one part of it you may as well set up catholicism as the national religion and start the inquisition over again. Point is if we violate our own code of ethics repaying his actions we are going to look like the most incompetant hypocritical nincompoops that ever walked the face of this earth to all the people out there that already hate us.

There are 4 basic groups of people in the world:

1) Those that like you for the wrong reasons.
2) Those that like you for the right reasons.
3) Those that don't like you for the wrong reasons.
4) Those that don't like you for the right reasons.

It would be nice to get as many into the 2nd group as possible, and better information can help move some of groups 1 and 3. But the 4th group has legitimate complaints, and that requires some serious consideration.

Our societies and cultures have come smack up against groups 3 and 4. Its gonna take awhile to sort out.

Originally posted by blackrose
Point is if we violate our own code of ethics repaying his actions we are going to look like the most incompetant hypocritical nincompoops that ever walked the face of this earth to all the people out there that already hate us.

oh, i'm sure we(usa) wont repay them in the manner i suggested, but i SURE AS HELL WOULD! but thats just me, i have no regard for the lives of those who have no regard for innocent lives.

Blackrose, I agree with what you said, but . . .

Originally posted by blackrose
...and punishing him in any way other than in a normal humane way would violate the cruel and unusual punishment part of our constitution...

The Constitution applies to American citizens only. Enemies of war and foreigners can not be considered as under its protection. During World War II, Nazi spies and saboteurs found here in America were executed promtly and efficiently. They were not afforded the rights of trial because they were not US citizens and were our sworn enemies.

It's amazing how far we have come. Nowadays, when we catch a foreigner trying to harm our country and our citizens, he gets a trial and an all-expense paid stay at a minimum security resort.

The Nazis never directly attacked America but they were executed for trying. Our modern-day enemies, these moslem terrorists, have commited acts of war against us and have killed our citizens, and yet we give them all benefit of the doubt and the protection of our freedoms. They are no less resolved to destroy us than were the Nazis (perhaps even more so, because they have the conviction of their religion) and should be dealt with in the same way.

It's time for everyone to get their heads out of their asses and realize that our way of life is on the line. Remember, these people would drop a nuclear bomb on you if they had the chance and wouldn't even think twice.

"The Nazis never directly attacked America but they were executed for trying. Our modern-day enemies, these moslem terrorists, have commited acts of war against us and have killed our citizens, and yet we give them all benefit of the doubt and the protection of our freedoms"
because you'r not fighting a usual enemy, where you'r either one side or the other with clear signs, and secondly your dealing with citzens turned combatants... Citizens have rights, whether they blong to that country or not... spies are just desgised combatants.....

"Remember, these people would drop a nuclear bomb on you if they had the chance and wouldn't even think twice."

Who says? Bush when he's trying to whip up poeple's suppourt for this campaign?
Ben Laden says he has nuclear weapons, and I believe him as under yeltzin several "suitcase bombs" went missing, which is a little talked about fact... I think he relizes that nuclear bombs are a double edged sword, they're good in giving something to threaten with, but all hell will break loose if you actually use one....
He's said to a pakistani reporter that he has nuclear weapons and will only use them in retalaition if the Us drops one, which is pretty much the agreement the Americans and the Russains came to....

Originally posted by educatedfilm
"The Nazis never directly attacked America but they were executed for trying. Our modern-day enemies, these moslem terrorists, have commited acts of war against us and have killed our citizens, and yet we give them all benefit of the doubt and the protection of our freedoms"
because you'r not fighting a usual enemy, where you'r either one side or the other with clear signs, and secondly your dealing with citzens turned combatants... Citizens have rights, whether they blong to that country or not... spies are just desgised combatants.....

"Remember, these people would drop a nuclear bomb on you if they had the chance and wouldn't even think twice."

Who says? Bush when he's trying to whip up poeple's suppourt for this campaign?
Ben Laden says he has nuclear weapons, and I believe him as under yeltzin several "suitcase bombs" went missing, which is a little talked about fact... I think he relizes that nuclear bombs are a double edged sword, they're good in giving something to threaten with, but all hell will break loose if you actually use one....
He's said to a pakistani reporter that he has nuclear weapons and will only use them in retalaition if the Us drops one, which is pretty much the agreement the Americans and the Russains came to....

but does he have the intelligence to realize that the power of his suitcase nuke is like a firecracker compared to the country/glassing fryboys we have? no, he isn't that smart. just a somewhat totally insane/devious intelligence.

He is EXTREMELY intelligent, if he wasn't he'd be dead a long time ago.... I think you should relize he's powerful threat, and not just another nobody the CIA can snuff....
He's absoloutly wrong in doing what he's doing at the moment, but he can manage to do what he's done by being very very smart and manapulative.....
He does relize what nuclear bombs do, but what's more devistating a H/ nuetron-bomb in the mountainous remote and empty parts of Afganistan, or one "fire cracker" of suitcase bomb (which is infact as strong the hiroshima and nagasaki bombs) in city with millions of poeple? At the minute he's in a win/ win situation... and they only real way to get out of it is to put him up in a court, and prove he did it and give him what he deserves (which most poeple will suppourt), or prove that he didn't to making him look like an oppertunist fool....
oh well....

Originally posted by educatedfilm
He is EXTREMELY intelligent, if he wasn't he'd be dead a long time ago.... I think you should relize he's powerful threat, and not just another nobody the CIA can snuff....
He's absoloutly wrong in doing what he's doing at the moment, but he can manage to do what he's done by being very very smart and manapulative.....
He does relize what nuclear bombs do, but what's more devistating a H/ nuetron-bomb in the mountainous remote and empty parts of Afganistan, or one "fire cracker" of suitcase bomb (which is infact as strong the hiroshima and nagasaki bombs) in city with millions of poeple? At the minute he's in a win/ win situation... and they only real way to get out of it is to put him up in a court, and prove he did it and give him what he deserves (which most poeple will suppourt), or prove that he didn't to making him look like an oppertunist fool....
oh well....

well, its like this, the **** dont scare me! we're on a collision course with armageddon and there is nothing we can do to stop it. it's inevitable, and eventually it will happen. if not now, probably sooner than later. so if binny wants to be the dumb bastard that starts it, he'll pay. if not in this life, surely in the next (i'm thinking binny and hitler will be sharing the same charcoal bed). basically the entire human race is bent on destruction, so it seems. i'm guilty as well, i admit i have one hell of a bloodlust to see binny boy and his people suffer for their crime. anyhow, as far as armageddon, who knows? this could be the start, and as you said, "oh well". sorry if i seem a bit "attitudish", but venting is the only way i can keep from having a meltdown, because i am a 100% pissed off AMERICAN! i will try to make this the last post, i feel as though i'm becoming a bore to you all, so party on!

Judging by the replies most of you guys are American right??? So I'll just give you a non_american opinion (I come from Slovenia)

-----------------------------
Originally posted by blackrose
Point is if we violate our own code of ethics repaying his actions we are going to look like the most incompetant hypocritical nincompoops that ever walked the face of this earth to all the people out there that already hate us.
-----------------------------

I think you are right. You (in general) always act like you really care for doing the right thing, to be fair to others.
But where does this war lead to????
YOu wanted to punish Osama ( still not proven guilty ), but you bytheway hurt millions. Did you guys ever see, how the refugees are treated??? How many of them are fleein', witout food (charity organisations- huhhh - not sufishient), without basic medications.... You will destroy the entire country, to get like I don't know maybe a thousand terrorists. This sure is the justice "the American way".
I don't mean to say that I agree with Osama, but your way is WRONG!!!!

Originally posted by Christoph
Blackrose, I agree with what you said, but . . .

Originally posted by blackrose
...and punishing him in any way other than in a normal humane way would violate the cruel and unusual punishment part of our constitution...

The Constitution applies to American citizens only. Enemies of war and foreigners can not be considered as under its protection. During World War II, Nazi spies and saboteurs found here in America were executed promtly and efficiently. They were not afforded the rights of trial because they were not US citizens and were our sworn enemies.

Quote from The Declaration of Independance:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

More specific to the point of the Constitution, you might want to re-read Ammendments IV-VI, and VIII. Terrorists are not spies, nor are they soldiers. That means they fall into the category of criminals subject to criminal law. All people tried in the US are tried under the same laws.

Uhhh hello!!! The United States was not founded on the Declaration of Independance. It was founded on the Constitution.

I don't really give a damn how you want to rationalize all your beliefs. The fact is that anyone who comes over to our country and kills 6000 of our citizens is an enemy of war and must be dealt with as such. To give the benefit and protection of our freedoms to an enemy of war who has sworn to destroy us is completely asinine.

I did mention the Constitution, namely some select amendments from the Bill or Rights dealing specificly with issues of due process- all of which are worded to apply to all people. The Constitution protects and governs everybody within the US as equals. We're talking about the fundamental foundation of our nation here. It serves nobody's interest to destroy that foundation in the name of petty revenge. I tossed in The Declaration of Independance for a little background and to set the mood of the people who wrote the Constitution.

I for one have no interest in treating those people as soldiers, protected under the Geneva Convention. Are you suggesting we put them into camps until we defeat Terrorism (the nation who commissioned said "soldiers"), then let them go on to lead happy lives draping POW flags from their porches?

They deserve nothing more than to live the rest of their lives and die as criminals.

The US has not officially declared war, so therefore, the Geneva Convention does not apply. That's precisely the reason why Congress did not declare war, so our armed forces wouldn't have to worry about the technicalities of the Convention while hunting down these terrorists.

Camps, huh? How about hard labor camps somewhere north of the Arctic Circle for the rest of their lives? Or maybe we could put them to work for FedEx in Antarctica . . .

By the way, the Constitution is for citizens only. The protection that it provides is a priviledge! . . . forged and earned with the blood of the countless people who have died fighting for it. There is not one good reason why a group of terrorists that has vowed to destroy freedom and send the world back into the dark ages should be given the priviledge of due process.

Originally posted by Christoph
The US has not officially declared war, so therefore, the Geneva Convention does not apply. That's precisely the reason why Congress did not declare war, so our armed forces wouldn't have to worry about the technicalities of the Convention while hunting down these terrorists.

Camps, huh? How about hard labor camps somewhere north of the Arctic Circle for the rest of their lives? Or maybe we could put them to work for FedEx in Antarctica . . .

By the way, the Constitution is for citizens only. The protection that it provides is a priviledge! . . . forged and earned with the blood of the countless people who have died fighting for it. There is not one good reason why a group of terrorists that has vowed to destroy freedom and send the world back into the dark ages should be given the priviledge of due process.

looks like i just won't go away!
great idea! (the fed ex thing). and might i suggest that they have to work with our flag that they hate, shoved up their asses!

Originally posted by Christoph
By the way, the Constitution is for citizens only. The protection that it provides is a priviledge! . . . forged and earned with the blood of the countless people who have died fighting for it. There is not one good reason why a group of terrorists that has vowed to destroy freedom and send the world back into the dark ages should be given the priviledge of due process.

Tell that to the Supreme Court. Can I videotape them laughing at you?

Three good reasons:
1). Due process and individual rights are what fundamentally separate us from them. To throw that out the window is to become them. Remember, they used their faith and the welfare of their people to justify a massacare of thousands of "us."
2). An errosion of their civil rights is an errosion of your civil rights. First it's "foregners," that eventually evolves into any "threat" against the people. Once a barrier is crossed, it's far more difficult to set it back up. It also means that there's one less barrier protecting you. I have never seen both left and right wing government watch dog groups so alarmed about civil rights as they are right now.
3). It's the Law of the Land.

Here's an example of when things start to get out of control:
In Australia they are considering anti-terrorist legislation that defines terrorism so broadly that damage caused during legitimate protest could be construed as "terrorism". Very scary stuff. Talk about using a tragedy to clamp down on anmti-government protests. In the US I ehar that radio stations have been banned from playing particular songs, including John Lennon's "Imagine", and anything performed by RATM. I don't know whether the bans have been lifted yet, but that is truly worrying stuff. As soon as something happens, suddenly no one is allowed criticise a capitalist society, or US foreign policy, or whatnot. It's almost a surprise that this site forum hasn't been blocked, or that Rask hasn't been dragged from his home. Ok, ok, that's going a bit far, but still...

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
Can I videotape them laughing at you?

Well, they're a pretty busy bunch. You might have some scheduling conflicts.

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
An errosion of their civil rights is an errosion of your civil rights. First it's "foregners," that eventually evolves into any "threat" against the people. Once a barrier is crossed, it's far more difficult to set it back up. It also means that there's one less barrier protecting you. I have never seen both left and right wing government watch dog groups so alarmed about civil rights as they are right now.

Hey, all you conspiracy theorists!!! Do you think that the current "crisis" with terrorists and anthrax could be another orchestration to bring about the creation of a global police state?? (That was the reason behind the Great Depression, both World Wars, the rise and fall of Communism, and every major European war of the 19th century, ya know!)

"Give a nation war, and she'll be only too happy to surrender the sentimentality of freedom."
-Taylor Caldwell

Most of the control over Germany that Adolph Hitler asked for seemed fairly reasonable at the time.

He basicly said "put your trust in me, and I will protect you, and restore our nation" to a group of hurt and demoralized people. And they gave it to him. Look where it brought us all.

Now I doubt GW has some sinister plan to control all our minds, and conquer the wolrd. But what about somebody yet to come? Power attracts both people who wish to help others and also some of the most corrupt people ever to walk the earth. That's why our government is set up the way it is, that's why we have the Constitution, and what makes it so important for us to protect.

Sure, go ahead and let fear and anger chip away at our rights. See where it gets out children, or our grand children.