Song Help


Weslaba
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Weslaba
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07/13/2007 1:26 am
So uhhhh... I've been messing around with a song for awhile now, and for the life of me, I can't seem to progress anywhere when I work on it these days. The problem seems to be that, my knowledge of keys basically starts and ends with the major keys and the chord formula which works along with the degrees to get you... Major-minor-minor-major-major-minor-diminished. So already this is a problem because the main chord of the song I'm working on is Cm7. :confused: If somebody could kind of steer me in the right direction. Basically, I'm looking for other chords that could work with Cm7 and F9, and any explination of why would be much appreciated. Thanks.
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# 1
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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07/13/2007 3:12 am
You could work in the key of Bb.. or Gm..
# 2
Weslaba
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Weslaba
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07/13/2007 3:30 am
Yeah... I guess the whole m7 and 9 thing throw me off. :cool:
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# 3
Weslaba
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Weslaba
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07/13/2007 3:55 am
I just wrote out a bunch of scales, and did out the chord charts and everything, and I can see how it works together, but could someone please explain in depth how the 7th and 9th chords, even 11th and 13th fit into those keys, its just not clicking in, and hasn't for awhile, so I would love to be able to get this out of the way. Its killing my creativity and I hate it. :mad:

One key thing that is throwing me off is the 7th chords. The b7 and I aren't getting along very well.
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# 4
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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07/13/2007 6:05 am
Originally Posted by: WeslabaI just wrote out a bunch of scales, and did out the chord charts and everything, and I can see how it works together, but could someone please explain in depth how the 7th and 9th chords, even 11th and 13th fit into those keys, its just not clicking in, and hasn't for awhile, so I would love to be able to get this out of the way. Its killing my creativity and I hate it. :mad:

One key thing that is throwing me off is the 7th chords. The b7 and I aren't getting along very well.

All of the chords in a key are built from the notes pertaining to that key.
The key of Bb is..... Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A
If you tried to build a Cmaj7 in this key, it would never work. The notes needed would be; C-E-G-B (1st,3rd,5th,7th)
To remain in key the notes need to be; C-Eb-G-Bb (1st,b3rd,5th,b7th)
which becomes a Cm7 chord.
To make a Cm9; Notes C-D-Eb-G-Bb (1st,2nd,b3rd,5th,b7th) but it's written C-Eb-G-Bb-D (1st,b3rd,5th,b7th,9th) because (2nd and 9th are both note D) the pitch class emphasized (9th) is above the Octive; 8th=C, 9th=D. Intervals above the Octive are known as Compound Intervals (9th,11th,13th)
Nor would a Fmaj7 fit in that key; F-A-C-E (1st,3rd,5th,7th) needs b7th, Eb.
But an F7sus4 does; F-Bb-C-Eb (1st,4th,5th,b7th)

How many of these chords would fit in the Key of Bb??????
Gm7
Am7
Dm7
Dm9
Ebmaj7
Ebmaj9
Ebmaj13
Am7/b5
# 5
Weslaba
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Weslaba
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07/13/2007 3:38 pm
I kinda did it quick, and correct me if I'm wrong, but everyone of those works other than the Am7, Dm9, and Ebmaj13.
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# 6
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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07/13/2007 4:10 pm
you got it bro............Are the 7th's, etc......Making sense now????
# 7
Weslaba
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Weslaba
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07/13/2007 8:05 pm
A little bit, seeing as I got those correct. Its just the whole b7 thing just seems off. If its a major scale, then the 7 is normal, so I think it's just that I'm kinda relating everything subconsciously to a major scale/chord. :rolleyes:
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# 8
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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07/13/2007 11:21 pm
Originally Posted by: WeslabaA little bit, seeing as I got those correct. Its just the whole b7 thing just seems off. If its a major scale, then the 7 is normal, so I think it's just that I'm kinda relating everything subconsciously to a major scale/chord. :rolleyes:

You should relate everything from Major because that's where music in the Western World derives from.
Take the G Major scale;
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#...........Key of G
Now take the A Major scale;
A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#
For "A" to fit in the Key of G, some changes to the A Major scale need to happen;
A-B-(C#)-D-E-F#-(G#),,, C#(3rd) and G# (7th) need to flatten 1/2 step to fit the key; When the note flattens, so does the interval number........
C= b3 and G= b7
The new scale is; A-B-C-D-E-F#-G....(1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7) which now fits the Key of G. Since the A Major scale was altered, it can no longer be called the A Major scale because of the b3 and b7 intervals. The b3 interval causes the scale to become minor and the b7 interval is no longer the leading note to A, it can stand on it's own, where the original 7th would beg for resolve to A.
This new minor scale is known as "A Dorian".
Now take the D Major scale;
D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#
For D to fit in the Key of G, the C#(7th) must flatten 1/2 step to C(b7).
The new scale is; D-E-F#-G-A-B-C...(1-2-3-4-5-6-b7)...The 3rd is present so it's a Major scale, only the b7 interval altered the Leading note (7th).
This new Major scale is known as "D Mixolydian".

Chords are derived from these scales to fit the Key.
Am7= A-C-E-G (A Dorian)
D7= D-F#-A-C (D Mixolydian)
Gmaj7= G-B-D-F# (G Ionian)
Bm7= B-D-F#-A (B Phrygian).....etc.
# 9
Weslaba
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Weslaba
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07/14/2007 2:13 am
So... is there any way the 7th's fit into the major minor minor major major minor diminished pattern? Such as 7 m7 m7 maj7 maj7 m7 ... ? :confused:
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# 10
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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07/14/2007 10:03 am
Originally Posted by: WeslabaSo... is there any way the 7th's fit into the major minor minor major major minor diminished pattern? Such as 7 m7 m7 maj7 maj7 m7 ... ? :confused:

Applying notes to the pattern might help. Keeping with the G Major scale for an example, the pattern would be;
G Major = G-B-D
A minor = A-C-E
B minor = B-D-F#
C Major = C-E-G
D Major = D-F#-A
E minor = E-G-B
F#m/b5 = F#-A-C

When you see 7 added to a chord, this note is referenced to the m7th (b7) interval from the Root note of that chord. Just because it's noted as the minor 7th interval doesn't necessarily mean that it's a minor 7th chord; The 3rd interval dictates the chord's Major or minor status. If a b3rd follows the Root note of a chord, it's minor, if it's a 3rd (up 2 Whole steps), it's Major.
The 7th note title will be located 2 semitones (1 Whole step) lower than the Root note. Example; The m7th note title from Root "A" would be "G".

For a chord to add a M7 interval from it's Root, it's referenced as a maj7 chord. Again, this dictates the M7th interval, not the Chord's status.
For a maj7 chord to fit the Key, the M7's (Leading note) title must be located one semitone (1/2 step) lower than the Root note of that Chord. Example;
The M7 title from "G" would be "F#".
Now Down to business adding the 7th to the above chords;
Gmaj7 = G-B-D-F#
Am7 = A-C-E-G
Bm7 = B-D-F#-A
Cmaj7 = C-E-G-B (B is one semitone lower from C)
D7 = D-F#-A-C (this is a D Major Chord, Referred to as a Dominant 7th chord)
Em7 = E-G-B-D
F#m7/b5 = F#-A-C-E (This Chord is Referred to as "F# Half Diminished")

Many players claim not to pay much attention in learning the diminished chords/scales because they rarely get used, so practicing the F# Locrian mode is a waste of time......... I beg to differ and encourage everyone to implement them in their playing. Remember the reference to "Leading note" because the chords and improvs that integrate them are strong to emphasize the Tonal Center. In the Key of G the Leading note is F#. The D7 chord takes it even one step further; it's 3rd is F# and the b7th is C, which creates a Tritone and begs for resolve to the Tonic.
Play a D7, then a F# Half Dim chord (F#m7/b5... The Half Diminished chord has the intervals 1-b3-b5-b7, noted sometimes as F# HD) and see how closely they relate in substitution.
There are five qualities of the 7th chord (in Western music);
1) maj7
2) dom7
3) m7
4) Half Diminished
5) Diminished 7 (Symmetric qualities)

Here's how they relate to each other by one interval change.

__7>>>>>>b7_________b7______b7>>>>>>>>bb7 (6th)
__5________5_________5>>>>>>b5__________b5
__3________3>>>>>>>b3______b3__________b3
__1________1_________1_______1___________1
maj7........dom7............m7.........hd..............dim7

Next post, I'll show how closely related these 7th chords are.
# 11
ChristopherSchlegel
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ChristopherSchlegel
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07/14/2007 3:52 pm
Excuse me for jumping in here, guys. I think dvenetian is doing a bang up job helping out here with some good, in depth info. Kudos. I just wanted to add a bit of the puzzle if it helps.

Remember that any notes or chords you include in a tune or your playing should have some purpose or function. The function of the 7th in a chord is like anything else: it's either structural or ornamental.

Structural use of the 7th would be how it works in voice leading. Typically the 7th is resolved down in the next chord that occurs. So if you are in the key of G minor and playing the C minor 7 chord (iv) the 7th of Cmin7 is a B-flat. If the next chord is a F9 then the B-flat goes to A (the major 3rd of F):

|--3--3--------------------------------|
|--4--4--------------------------------|
|--3--2--------------------------------|
|--5--3--------------------------------|
|--3-----------------------------------|
|--------------------------------------|

Or if you are going from Cmin7 to D7:

|--3--2--------------------------------|
|--4--1--------------------------------|
|--3--2--------------------------------|
|--5--0--------------------------------|
|--3-----------------------------------|
|--------------------------------------|

If I am working on using two chords (Cmin7 & F7 or F9) I will frequently work out possible inversions up the fretboard. A few examples:

|--3--3--|--6--5--|--8--8--|--11--11--|
|--4--4--|--4--4--|--8--8--|--11--10--|
|--3--2--|--5--5--|--8--8--|--8---10--|
|-----3--|-----3--|--8--7--|--10--10--|
|--3-----|--6-----|--------|----------|
|--------|--------|--------|----------|

In any event, look for the 7th of the chord to move down a half step or a whole step in the next chord. Ornamental uses are simply, you like the sound of any given 7th chord and will put it in regardless of how the voices work.

Hope this helps. Carry on! :)
Christopher Schlegel
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# 12
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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07/15/2007 2:16 am
Thanks for the kind words C... By all means, jump in. Great post... You're an expert and members are fortunate in that you share it.
My problem in regard to these topics; I fell like trying to give a thorough foundation that referenced theory can build on, becomes an overload of information at times.
The initial post pertained to 7th and b7 in relation to Major, minor and diminished chord progressions.
At this time, I'm ready to post dom7 and dim7 qualities along with building from the info off your post. My fear is that it may cause a meltdown.......
Maybe it's better to respond from any questions at this point........ It may show there is still an interest from progress......
# 13
Weslaba
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Weslaba
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07/15/2007 4:00 pm
All this has definitely helped out. I know how to find out if the chord is in a certain key, but what I was really hoping to find out was if (Yeah, I want the easy way out :rolleyes: ) there was any pattern to knowing which 7th chords, or heck, any chords were in the key. Maybe a simplified (if necessary) list of chords that fit into a key. C major would be an easy way to go with this I would think. I hate to seem like a lazy bum that wants the easy "patterns" out of everything, but I'd like to try and avoid writing out scales and chord structures every time I go to write songs, and I would HOPE that this is possible. Thanks. And also, if this changes things, I know how everything works at this point, so the little shortcuts will help to increase my knowledge, and on my own time, I can still make sure I really understand how and why they fit in. :cool:
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# 14
dvenetian
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dvenetian
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07/16/2007 10:15 pm
To answer your question Wes, the pattern in a key works for all keys.
The key of G used in the example would be applied to the Key of C following the sequence of notes used in C Major (C-D-E-F-G-A-B) 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
1= maj7
2= m7
3= m7
4= maj7
5= dom7
6= m7
7= HD (Half Diminished)

This pattern works in all Major keys and represents 4 of the 5 qualities with 7th chords; maj7, dom7, min7 and HD.
Understand that following patterns give more of a mechanical process to your playing.
In CSchlegel's post, he emphasizes on purpose or function to chord usage and voicing. This only comes with the complete understanding of how the chords function to each other and not by certain patterns. It allows for ways to phrase a piece with originality and resolve. It also opens ideas with the opportunity in modulation.
Look at the dom7 chord for example; In the Key of C, that would be G7
(G-B-D-F), a G Major chord with a m7 interval. This chord creates two dissonant intervals within it that needs resolve; the m7 (F) between the Root (G) and the natural 7th (F#) and the other is the b5 (F) between the 3rd (B) and it's 5th (F#), known as a Tritone (B to F is a Tritone).
In fact, if you were to look at a dom7 chord (G-B-D-F) and sharpen the Root 1/2 step, it would become a fully Diminished 7th chord (G#-B-D-F).
This is the difference between following a pattern and understanding how chords function by voicing. It's a lot to digest at first, but if you focus on things a little at a time, it will fit the puzzle in your own creativity.
# 15
Weslaba
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Weslaba
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07/17/2007 2:24 pm
Thanks a lot, that is a really big help. I think the problem is that since I'm so used to just taking the easy way out and making the chorus all "power chords", the use of 7ths and 9ths is throwing me off. :rolleyes:
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# 16

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