Iraq

I don't know if you've guys have talked about this before, but what are you're feelings on the matter?

I've got mixed feelings on it, I think we should be over there, since we are helping them, and they actually seem to want the help, but on the other hand, I say we shouldn't be over there at all, let them helpselves.

This can be a touchy subject, so please try not get upset and start fighting over this, I just want to see what kind of thoughts you have.

Also, this isn't likely, but I plan on joining the Marines, I would actually like to go over to Iraq, as an MP, Military Police.. If you didn't know.

If this is an over-kill subject, someone can delete this.

There are a lot of threads about this. Maybe one of the guru's can help you search them out. I've shot my mouth off enough about this subject so... that's it for me.

It's hard to prevent a civil war that's been brewing for a long time. And I'll always feel like I was straight lied to about going there in the first place... WMD's and all that...

Originally Posted by: GuitarJunkie23... I think we should be over there, since we are helping them, and they actually seem to want the help, but on the other hand, I say we shouldn't be over there at all, let them helpselves.[/quote]
Many people are honestly conflicted about it. Which illuminates the fact that there is a more fundamental problem: Help them do what?

Iraq did have an evil ruler (and government); a true dictator. Which most importantly means individual rights were being violated; people (the general population) were not simply free to live their lives and go about their business.

Since the US is a country which protects and enforces individual rights, the US has the right to kill dictators & their armies. It is important to note that the US is not obligated to go after every bad guy, but as long as the US is a defender of individual rights it does have the right to go around protecting individual rights.

One problem is that Iraq is not the only place in the world with a horrific, irrational government. The US army is only so big. So, how do we choose who gets helped? Why not one of the endlessly wartorn coutries in Africa? And as I stated before, help them do what?

The government & media made a big deal out of "establishing democracy" as the mission of what we are doing in Iraq to help. As a consequence, we saw many wonderful reports showing the Iraqi citizens with their colored thumbs after having voted.

But then the killing didn't stop.

The problem is that democracy is not a primary form of government. "Democracy" isn't even a good form of government; it is simply "mob rule". An uncompromising, principled, rational commitment to the protection and enforcement of individual rights is the only form of government that is proper to a truly free society. The US does this in the form of a Bill of Rights & a Constitution. As a consequence, the US has achieved the most individual freedom for it's citizens. More than any other country in the history of the world; which is truly a glorious achievement.

The idea that "democracy is a fundamental premise of government" is dangerously wrong. Without the foundation of individual freedom democracy is worthless. The only thing the US uses "democracy" for is the process of voting in elected political officials.

And THAT isn't even working very well for us, now is it?

Often it seems the only thing politicos from the right and the left can agree on is how much they would like to obliterate individual freedom.

The poor people in Iraq and in many countries the world over are still stuck in the Middle Ages. Hell, most of them still have not truly lived through, conceptually grasped or understood the Renaissance, The Enlightenment & the Industrial Revolution. Without this context how could anyone expect them to act like a modern, civilized county? Regardless of whether or not they can vote without being killed.

It is very discouraging that many in the US government & media either do not understand this or willfully ignore it. It seems the fundamental conceptual basis of truly the greatest country in the history of the world, the US, is either not understood or completely taken for granted.
[QUOTE=GuitarJunkie23]
Also, this isn't likely, but I plan on joining the Marines, I would actually like to go over to Iraq, as an MP, Military Police.. If you didn't know.

If you do, I wish you success & applaud your courage. You will have a distinction not shared by many other military men from other countries around the world. As a part of the US military you can proudly say you are a protector and defender of individual rights.

meh such discussions are no longer necessary in my opinion...it only entices anger

We all know it all about the control over their oil not the peoples rights. :mad:

The United States' foriegn policy is dangerous at best. If we don't soon adopt a live and let live attitude I feel sorry for our grandchildren.

Originally Posted by: magicninja If we don't soon adopt a live and let live attitude I feel sorry for our grandchildren.

I already do my friend, I already do. It will take years and years of steady and concentrated effort to undo the damage that has been inflicted globally over the past six years. If it can be done at all. :(

I love it how the same people spew on about WMD's being lies over and over again. Meanwhile, you've got senators marching across the nation condemning the war...the same war they themselves voted for BECAUSE WMD's were present. Enough about the WMD thing being a lie. It wasn't. You'd be naive to think otherwise. Saddam wasn't stupid. He wasn't just gonna leave em out for us to have. Neither were his followers.

That drives me absolutely crazy. Its really a very stupid argument to make.

Originally Posted by: grizzlymintI love it how the same people spew on about WMD's being lies over and over again. Meanwhile, you've got senators marching across the nation condemning the war...the same war they themselves voted for BECAUSE WMD's were present. Enough about the WMD thing being a lie. It wasn't. You'd be naive to think otherwise. Saddam wasn't stupid. He wasn't just gonna leave em out for us to have. Neither were his followers.

That drives me absolutely crazy. Its really a very stupid argument to make.

Too bad he didn't hide himself as good as his weapons. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by: magicninjaToo bad he didn't hide himself as good as his weapons. :rolleyes:

Even so...everyone thought there were WMDs. Leftists, rightists, whoever. So even if they didn't exist, we were all wrong together. I don't think it was a blatant lie by president Bush himself. Faulty intelligence? Maybe. But personally I don't think so.

Originally Posted by: grizzlymintEven so...everyone thought there were WMDs. Leftists, rightists, whoever. So even if they didn't exist, we were all wrong together. I don't think it was a blatant lie by president Bush himself. Faulty intelligence? Maybe. But personally I don't think so.

I never thought there were. And I think congress was intentionally mislead by fabricated lies to make that vote. The Dem's didn't want to look like pussies on foreign policy either, so they manned up and decided to not use war as a last resort, but as a first resort. I'll never be convinced that Bush wasn't gunning for Saddam from day one of his presidency.

Originally Posted by: grizzlymintEven so...everyone thought there were WMDs. Leftists, rightists, whoever. So even if they didn't exist, we were all wrong together. I don't think it was a blatant lie by president Bush himself. Faulty intelligence? Maybe. But personally I don't think so.

I'd have to disagree on the whole premise that Iraq should've had it's own spy satellite long before the war was even thought up. They should have known with out a doubt whether Saddam was moving weapons or not. If they somehow missed that then the whole operation was a failure to begin with.

You may both be right. Personally, I think being easily lead and going to war would make the Dems far bigger pussies than what they would've been considered if they wanted to look into more....Anyways, Saddam bs'd the UN weapons inspectors for so long, there was no more looking into it. There was no reason to believe he didn't have them, especially being there thousands of his own people buried in mass graves to show for that.

I'll shut up on this because we're all beating a dead horse here.

I could go on for days about this....but I will just say, the president is a liar and a war criminal.
who is a bigger "pussy"....one who opposes an unnecessary war or one who is gung ho about it but does not sign up??

Yes, we were all wrong together at the start of this. But being wrong at the begining of something is no reason to perpetuate it all along because you're afraid to admit the mistake. I too was ready for war on 9/11 and 9/12 and 9/13 and for quite some time after that. It was a simple case of bloodlust. I, and countless other Americans and other world citizens wanted their revenge.

But we went after the wrong people for the wrong reasons. This is supposed to be a war against Al Quida. (That's probably not spelled right but eh...). Sure, Iraq harbored them and in some instances trained and supported them. Heck, you can't look around the middle east, pretty much around the world, where there are no terrorist training camps. Maybe not Al Quida per se but any of a thousand other anti-American, anti-west groups filled with enough venom and vitriol to wage war until the end of time.

Do we go after them all?

No. We go after the ones that came after us. How many of those involved in 9/11 were Iraqi? How many involved in the first attack on the WTC were Iraqi? How many involved in the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole were Iraqi?

I guess the final question that I have is not whether we made a mistake by going to war. We did. I think we all agree. The question is now how much longer do we have to labor under this delusion that this is a righteous endeavor? It's not. Now that we are learning the truth, the real truth, how much longer can we ignore it?

I don't know if W. out and out lied about the WMD's or not. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that he and/or his adminstration has done just that. At this point, so many years and lives later, it really doesn't matter. I suspect that W. was caught up in the same bloodlust the hit everyone else and was easily manipulated into entering this war. By whom? Well, read your news and make up your own mind. And that's not an excuse for the Dems either. They went right along in line. I also doubt that this was about a chance for revenge against Saddam. That's an awful geo-political chance to take just so Dad will let you sit at the head of the table and carve the turkey at Thanksgiving.It reeks of profiterism and opportunistic policy advances.

What does matter is do we press on or not and if so, to what end? What is the final solution? The only possible outcome for any level of victory for the U.S. for this doomed venture is to declare Iraq a territory of the U.S. And quite frankly, it shames me as an American to think that is an actual possible scenerio.

When you enter a war, you do so with three very concrete ideals; a clear entrance, a clear mission and a clear and definite exit. Well, one out of three just ain't good enough. You've seen the news, you're read the reports. You know that there is no way that the U.S. can simply pull out the troops now. They can't. That would be as equal, if not greater, than the horror of war as it stands now.

I don't know what the answer is. But I do know that it is really, really frustrating to watch the stats roll every night of how many more have died. And they never really talk about the maimed, blinded and crippled for life that they fly back every day. They don't talk about the shadow army (mercenaries) that they pay to fight there as well. They don't tell you about the atrocities committed by this shadow army since they are contractors and not subject the UCMJ. They don't tell you about the profits that both American and world-wide companies have been raking in since this started.

No. They don't talk much about that.

Aw nuts, I did it again. When will I learn to keep my mouth shut?? :confused:

WMDs: There were there. They are still there now. Chemical shells have even been mixed in with regular high explosives in IEDs and have been used against US and British troops.

Why you haven't heard about this? Ask a CNN or BBC news producer sometime. There's a lot of very relevant information about this war that is readily available to anybody who wants to view it which simply isn't being communicated to the public.

Bin Ladin's stated strategy was to mire the US in a bunch of expensive, demoralizing conflicts in order to weaken America. The alternative would be to stand idly by, while the UN abdicated any responsibility for anything. Either way, the spread of repressive theocracy would be unchecked.

I am glad that the US, and NATO are fighting necessary battles 'over there' so that our enemies have fewer resources to allocate to operations 'here'.

You think the Virginia Tech massacre was horrible? It was. One homicidal maniac killed 32 innocent people who were simply going about their business.

Consider this: mass murder/suicide on a scale at least as big as the VT horror occur in Iraq and Afghanistan [u]every day![/u]

Actions taken to bring respect for human life to societies that encourage such atrocities are worth supporting. These murderers are not 'freedom fighters' in any sense of the word. They are not fighting for freedom. Their publicly declared intent is subject the entire world to their rule.

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