It's not what you play...


ren
Registered User
Joined: 02/03/05
Posts: 1,985
ren
Registered User
Joined: 02/03/05
Posts: 1,985
02/17/2007 7:51 pm
...It's the way that you play it.

I had a lesson with a guy today who perfectly embodies the frustrated guitar player. He says that no matter what lead line he plays, it always sounds the same.... no matter what mode he's using, and the guy's knowledge is pretty solid.

We spent some time today trading licks, and I noticed that no matter what I led with, he always came back on the beat with 8ths or 16th... never any syncopation / triplets / rests etc.

Just wanted to say that the rhythm you're keeping can transform a stale phrase... so if you're stuck in rut, try thinking less about the notes, and more about the timing...

By the end of the session, he left feeling a little better than when he arrived... hopefully next week he'll have a little more confidence and blow me away... :cool:

Check out my music, video, lessons & backing tracks here![br]https://www.renhimself.com

# 1
hunter60
Humble student
Joined: 06/12/05
Posts: 1,579
hunter60
Humble student
Joined: 06/12/05
Posts: 1,579
02/17/2007 7:54 pm
Good post. I can certainly understand your students frustration. I think a lot of the trouble I've been having has been in the timing and phrasing as well. Heck, that even translates over to my frustrations in trying to get women to go out with me...poor timing and bad phrasing! :D
[FONT=Tahoma]"All I can do is be me ... whoever that is". Bob Dylan [/FONT]
# 2
Logan826
High on Strat
Joined: 12/31/06
Posts: 71
Logan826
High on Strat
Joined: 12/31/06
Posts: 71
02/17/2007 9:49 pm
Thanks for the post Ren, made me rethink some of my problems too.
Hunter, the women problem. No sweat, all you need is a couple of roofies, a potato sack and a shovel. Cuts out a lot of the small talk. ;)
(just kidding, incase anyone took offense. I'm not really a pig, just joking)
Dan
# 3


Joined: 06/12/24
Posts: 0


Joined: 06/12/24
Posts: 0
02/17/2007 11:02 pm
If I take my experience (I struggled with the same thing also) and look back at what might have caused that. I'd say it would be the lack of rhythm experience.

yep, rhythm guitar was a weak point and instead of working on that I started lead. I can now say I stepped into lead way too fast.

This is just a thought but if someone doesn't have a good grasp of rhythm guitar he probably won't be faced with working on different rhythmic pattern.

This is also why I think studying different styles of music, even if you don't play that style ever, opens your mind to new rhythms.

Just out of curiosity Ren, how is your student rhythm guitar?
# 4
hunter60
Humble student
Joined: 06/12/05
Posts: 1,579
hunter60
Humble student
Joined: 06/12/05
Posts: 1,579
02/17/2007 11:13 pm
Originally Posted by: Logan826Thanks for the post Ren, made me rethink some of my problems too.
Hunter, the women problem. No sweat, all you need is a couple of roofies, a potato sack and a shovel. Cuts out a lot of the small talk. ;)
(just kidding, incase anyone took offense. I'm not really a pig, just joking)
Dan



LMAO! :D

Hmm. Interesting. Something to think about. (just joking too!)
[FONT=Tahoma]"All I can do is be me ... whoever that is". Bob Dylan [/FONT]
# 5
PlatonicShred
Registered User
Joined: 01/27/07
Posts: 93
PlatonicShred
Registered User
Joined: 01/27/07
Posts: 93
02/17/2007 11:47 pm
That's a pretty easy trap to get into for people who woodshed a lot on their vertical technique. They forget to practice their phrasing and horizontally grow. It's difficult to learn to switch between your 'metronomic' self and your 'phrasing' self sometimes.
Back In Black isn't a song. It's a divine call that gets channeled through five righteous dudes every thousand years or so. That's why dragons and sea monsters don't exist anymore.
# 6
ren
Registered User
Joined: 02/03/05
Posts: 1,985
ren
Registered User
Joined: 02/03/05
Posts: 1,985
02/18/2007 12:50 am
Originally Posted by: Benoit...Just out of curiosity Ren, how is your student rhythm guitar?


Well, not terrible... but not great either... As you say, he's way more into playing lead than rhythm - I've always pushed it but hey, I can't make the guy practice... :rolleyes:

I think you're right - we've got some work to do and some time has to pass before he starts to feel the music a bit more and get away from the robotic...

Check out my music, video, lessons & backing tracks here![br]https://www.renhimself.com

# 7


Joined: 06/12/24
Posts: 0


Joined: 06/12/24
Posts: 0
02/18/2007 1:06 am
Please keep us posted on how it goes.

Would be nice to see how and what makes him jump to the next step.

I know that for me one thing that helped me a lot was jamming over drum loops. I use them a lot and take the more complicated ones and try to follow them rhythmically. This I find is the best way to, like plantronic says, "switch between your 'metronomic' self and your 'phrasing' self". It forces you to adapt to the drum thus breaking away from the constant 8th and 16th :)
# 8
polansky
Registered User
Joined: 06/20/06
Posts: 327
polansky
Registered User
Joined: 06/20/06
Posts: 327
02/18/2007 4:40 am
I happen to have the same problem only the other way around, as a former drummer I tend to get into some percusive frases, changing time and a lot of muting strings to get just chug chug sound and play with that....but.... my problems is getting the other part (technique) going, getting a scale or progression sounding harmonical is my brick wall.

Still, having the sense of timing and using it as frasing sometimes (for me) is not enough... I wanna get something musical going on, not just the rythm frases.
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
# 9
PlatonicShred
Registered User
Joined: 01/27/07
Posts: 93
PlatonicShred
Registered User
Joined: 01/27/07
Posts: 93
02/18/2007 5:09 am
Originally Posted by: polanskyI happen to have the same problem only the other way around, as a former drummer I tend to get into some percusive frases, changing time and a lot of muting strings to get just chug chug sound and play with that....but.... my problems is getting the other part (technique) going, getting a scale or progression sounding harmonical is my brick wall.

Still, having the sense of timing and using it as frasing sometimes (for me) is not enough... I wanna get something musical going on, not just the rythm frases.


I think in your case the problem isn't really about syncopation versus playing it straight. It's more just an issue of broadening your musical vocabulary. Just learn more scales, chord progressions, practice playing whatever it is you hear in your head--not just the rhythms.

Once you gain a lot of fretboard knowledge, you'll find that things will just automatically start sounding more musical.
Back In Black isn't a song. It's a divine call that gets channeled through five righteous dudes every thousand years or so. That's why dragons and sea monsters don't exist anymore.
# 10
bunmiadefisayo
Registered User
Joined: 03/03/05
Posts: 162
bunmiadefisayo
Registered User
Joined: 03/03/05
Posts: 162
02/19/2007 10:10 pm
One thing that helped me when i had problems with lead playing was to get into rhythm playing. I took one or two lessons with this guy who plays jazz rhythm and it expanded my lead playing phenomenally. I guess its cuz he played a "chord-melody" style and he showed me different ways to play licks and riffs and stuff like that.
# 11
iceandhotwax
Registered User
Joined: 02/21/07
Posts: 126
iceandhotwax
Registered User
Joined: 02/21/07
Posts: 126
02/23/2007 4:21 am
when i started learning guitar (seriously) i fell in with a really solid rhythm guitarist so i "didnt need to know rhythm"... man what a stupid mistake
10+ years later i am now learning rhythm and it is much harder than it should be
# 12
Fret spider
Registered User
Joined: 12/14/05
Posts: 558
Fret spider
Registered User
Joined: 12/14/05
Posts: 558
02/24/2007 3:05 am
i dunno if this is any help but my mind was opened to what scales truely had in them when i read party of this keyboard book. it defined several types of notes;

chord tones; basically the notes in the chords you are playin over (eg root 3rd 5 7th or whatever. these notes anchor the lead to the rythm so they sound connected. too many and it sounds boaring to few and it sounds too random. try and settle on these tones and play them for longer or play one when the chord changes. this will help make the music fit/

scale tones; notes in the scale or scales you can use over several chords which contain notes that 'fit' with those played by the chord but are not in the chord. so like if i am playing Cmaj7 which would suggest ionion, the scale tones would be te second fourth and sixth.

passing tones; these are tones not in the key, they are often refered to as chromatics. an important part of them as they go from a note not in the key to one of the chord tones, or fill the gap between a scale tone and a chord tone, or a chord tone and a scale tone. they kind of fill the gaps. these can be used to make the music sound very silky and flowing and in some cases like the blues can be used to resolve from an incorect tone to the correct one, eg the minor third being bent the the majour one.

extensions; these notes are notes not in the chord that can build on the chord to make it more interesting like adding a flat or natural 2 to the minor chord being p[layed by the rythm. the thing about extensions is they dont have to be scale tones but can be. you then might say well arnt extensions just passing tones or scale tones, well no. extensions have to be phrassed in a certain way. they should normall follow a chord tone and should move by an interval larger than a third. also try to hold them for longer time so they have longer harmonic relevance.

scale tones extensions and passing tones add richness and the chord tones anchor the music. together if used properly and intelligently very creative and diverse music can be produced.

anyway hope this helps it really made this whole subject make a lot more sense to me. in the end remember theory is a guide not a rule, but although it ccan be good to stray from the path there is also much to be learnt from it.
# 13
ren
Registered User
Joined: 02/03/05
Posts: 1,985
ren
Registered User
Joined: 02/03/05
Posts: 1,985
03/27/2007 5:55 pm
Just bringinng this thread back to report to the group. Things are much improved.

I've spent the last few sessions working only on rhythm, and on songs with strong grooves rather than heavy technical elements. Overall, he's taken a step back with the attempts to out-shred me and is offering up some nice soulful blues... much respect.

I think I've also identified that he's trying to 'beat' me when we play together, so I've taken it down a notch with him and it seems to be working. He's sweating less and smiling more, and I've learned a lesson here too...

Check out my music, video, lessons & backing tracks here![br]https://www.renhimself.com

# 14
Fret spider
Registered User
Joined: 12/14/05
Posts: 558
Fret spider
Registered User
Joined: 12/14/05
Posts: 558
03/27/2007 6:14 pm
glad u worked it out. i guess a lot is down to psycology rather than technique. interesting.
# 15


Joined: 06/12/24
Posts: 0


Joined: 06/12/24
Posts: 0
03/27/2007 6:46 pm
Originally Posted by: renI think I've also identified that he's trying to 'beat' me when we play together, so I've taken it down a notch with him and it seems to be working. He's sweating less and smiling more, and I've learned a lesson here too...


VERY good point Ren, I never thought of that but it makes perfect sense.

That's a cool approach.
# 16
EPISODER
Registered User
Joined: 03/08/07
Posts: 96
EPISODER
Registered User
Joined: 03/08/07
Posts: 96
03/29/2007 1:00 pm
I had the same problem at first, I just wanted to be the "rock star" some kids dream of being. I was greatly mistaken. I learned some chords and just started playing them over and over and practiced transitioning between them. That got me beter at being able to change finger positions when playing lead. Chords. The answer to most. :cool:
[FONT=Fixedsys]A tout le monde, A tout mes amis, Je vous aime, Je dois partir. These are the last words I'll ever speak, and they'll set me free![/FONT] ;)
# 17
dvenetian
Registered User
Joined: 04/23/06
Posts: 627
dvenetian
Registered User
Joined: 04/23/06
Posts: 627
03/29/2007 8:58 pm
Originally Posted by: renJust bringinng this thread back to report to the group. Things are much improved.

I've spent the last few sessions working only on rhythm, and on songs with strong grooves rather than heavy technical elements. Overall, he's taken a step back with the attempts to out-shred me and is offering up some nice soulful blues... much respect.

I think I've also identified that he's trying to 'beat' me when we play together, so I've taken it down a notch with him and it seems to be working. He's sweating less and smiling more, and I've learned a lesson here too...

This is a great post. For an Instructor to show concern and find a remedy to gain back control for the benefit of their students' progress are signs of a great Instructor. It's a fact that we all learn as we go and each case is handled differently. Kudos, this is something we all can learn from. Jam on...
# 18

Please register with a free account to post on the forum.